Seating a bullet more shallowly in a Spl case.

P

Pond James Pond

New member
I'm thinking mainly about .44cal here, simply because that's what I shoot.

The difference between .44Spl OAL and that of the Magnum is only about 0.13" or 2.5mm.

So if I seated my bullets that 0.13" further out in the case, is there any reason why I could not use .44 Mag load data, given that the space under the bullet would be the same as in a .44 Mag case? Please think in terms of mid to light loads here: N320 8.5gn type loads for example (presently 7.3gn in the Spl case with a 1.45" OAL)

I ask this for two reasons. Firstly, in competitions, I'd like to start using light Mags in my .44 as the bullet jump to the forcing cone is less and so accuracy is better (as far as I've seen), and secondly (as I found out in last nights Level 2) it is possible to almost run out of rounds in a competition due to my limited number of cases.

I do plan on buying some more, but until that happens, or if I find I have a match coming up and I've not had time to prep spent cases, I don't want to go to a match where I only have a dozen spare shots beyond the max shots of the whole event!!
 
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The 44 mag brass is longer than the 44spl brass so if you load it longer the cannulure of the bullet will be in the wrong place to crimp to it. If your bullets don't have a cannulure and your taper crimping then it wouldn't matter.

Why don't you use 44mag brass and load them down to the light load you want? I don't buy spl brass for any of my magnums, I just load my magnums down to spl velocities.
Then I don't have to scrub a carbon ring out of my cylinder
 
Seating a bullet more shallowly in a Spl case.
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I believe it is a bad habit to shoot 44 Special cases in a 44 mag chamber. I want to cover the entire chamber. I do not shoot 38 Special in a 357 magnum.

I have more 38 special cases than 357 magnum cases. I have more 44 Remington mag cases than I have 44 Special cases.

F. Guffey
 
A picture speaks a thousand words, but none of them addressed the question there, David.

Besides, I shoot....

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And this didn't answer the question either. Surprise, surprise.

I believe it is a bad habit to shoot 44 Special cases in a 44 mag chamber. I want to cover the entire chamber. I do not shoot 38 Special in a 357 magnum.

I have more 38 special cases than 357 magnum cases. I have more 44 Remington mag cases than I have 44 Special cases.
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The 44 mag brass is longer than the 44spl brass so if you load it longer the cannulure of the bullet will be in the wrong place to crimp to it. If your bullets don't have a cannulure and your taper crimping then it wouldn't matter.
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Mine are plated bullets without a cannelure.

BTW, thanks for actually answering my question.

Why don't you use 44mag brass and load them down to the light load you want? I don't buy spl brass for any of my magnums, I just load my magnums down to spl velocities.
Then I don't have to scrub a carbon ring out of my cylinder
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As I explained in the OP, this provides a stop gap if the full quota of mag cases are not available for what ever reason.
 
JP,
Sorry, no experience with the Swedish powders.
I'd sure figure that seating the slug out a bit to duplicate
airspace would be fine, especially given your load parameters.
You don't really mention accuracy requirements (6" steel plates at 15 yds. or 2" groups at 25 yds).
Impacts between both loads should be close, but you'd want to put them on paper to know.

I'm the opposite of you fellows on the cases though.
I load the Specials for magnum power loads in revolvers as they eject better from the cylinders,
especially from Colt .357s. and K frame Smiths.
13.5 grs. 2400 with the Thompson GC seated to the lower crimp groove.

Smith .44s. Special cases with 17.5 grs. 2400/429421.

And I do not shoot either respective loading in any .38 or .44 Special chambered pistol other than Colt SAAs.

Not too sure about that bullet jump theory either, or at least the ammunition companies are not on board yet.
I have yet to see any target wadcutter ammo produced in a .357 case.

.44 Magnum, loading the 429421.
9.5 grs. of Unique in a .44 magnum case gives me
almost the accuracy that I get with 7.5 grs. in a Special case through both of my 29s.

My .02 JT
 
My initial reaction (yes, reaction) is that doing so may be a bad idea.

The first reason is that the wrong ammo may find it's way into the wrong gun. A 44 Mag load in a 44 Spl. While you may only have a 44 Mag and no 44 Spl guns and in theory the round should not fit a 44 Spl, it still seem like an accident waiting to happen. It would diffidently jam the pistol with the longer OAL (44 Spl pistol that is) as well as being an over pressure round and require a gunsmith's service.

But let's say that is not going to happen and just look at neck tension of a 44 Spl case loaded to 44 Mag pressures and OALs (even light ones). As you know bullet setback in a revolver goes forward and I would be concerned that the bullets will move forward and jam the cylinder to the point of making the gun inoperable right in the middle of a match. While that is a fixable problem, it would cost you the match, not to mention gunsmith fees.

While I would not put "street" tires on a formula one race car, I also do not think it is wise to load magnum loads in Spl cases. All it takes is one mishap to mess up your day.

Stay safe, and I do mean stay safe.
Jim
 
I don't know of any .44 bullets that allow you to crimp adequately if you seat the bullet out longer in a .44 Special case. The Lyman Thompson designed bullet #358156 GC was designed to allow what you're asking about in .38 Spl vs. .357 Magnum brass.

In my own use, .44 Special loads shot in .44 Magnum guns have equal accuracy to the same velocity loads shot using Magnum brass. For example, 7.5 gr of Unique, loaded in .44 Special brass and with a good LSWC gives me ~950 fps from a 6-1/2" Ruger Flat Top .44 Magnum and accuracy runs to 1-1/2" to 2" at 25 yds from rest. The same bullet requires ~8.0 gr of Unique in Magnum brass to give the same velocity and the accuracy is identical.

In my guns, the lead/powder fouling from use of .44 Spl. brass is no trouble to clean out after shooting. A few passes with a bronze bore brush suffices to clean out the residue, if not allowed to build up. I clean my guns after each use, with range sessions that rarely go more than 50-70 rounds with an individual gun, so in effect, I'm keeping up with the maintenance required.

The recoil from a stout .44 Spl. or magnum load, say 950 fps or more with a 240 gr LSWC, in my Rugers requires a fairly heavy crimp to keep bullets from jumping forward in the cylinder and tying up the gun. A taper crimp alone will not prevent this, I've found that a roll crimp, turned into a dedicated crimping groove is necessary.

Just wondering, are you getting any bullet jump with your plated bullets without a crimping groove in magnum level loads? I have no experience with the plated types.

The same holds true in my experience with .38 Special loads used in .357 Magnum cylinders.

HTH's Rod
 
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The first reason is that the wrong ammo may find it's way into the wrong gun. A 44 Mag load in a 44 Spl. While you may only have a 44 Mag and no 44 Spl guns and in theory the round should not fit a 44 Spl, it still seem like an accident waiting to happen.
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In principle, yes, but in practice that is astronomically unlikely. I doubt the number of .44Mags in this entire country exceeds 100. In all the years I've been shooting, I have never, ever seen a dedicated .44Spl gun on sale, new or used.

If that weren't enough, I tend to load my .44Spls for the next upcoming match. My 200gn loads don't sit around long.

So I take your concerns as valid in typical circumstances, but here it is not really likely. Still, in theory could it not work? The only really difference would be the amount on bullet experiencing neck tension...

In my own use, .44 Special loads shot in .44 Magnum guns have equal accuracy to the same velocity loads shot using Magnum brass. For example, 7.5 gr of Unique, loaded in .44 Special brass and with a good LSWC gives me ~950 fps from a 6-1/2" Ruger Flat Top .44 Magnum and accuracy runs to 1-1/2" to 2" at 25 yds from rest. The same bullet requires ~8.0 gr of Unique in Magnum brass to give the same velocity and the accuracy is identical.
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This is pretty much what I hope to do with some Mag cases. Until then I just want to know if I could pool my Mag and Spl brass together given that my Spl cases alone are relatively few now that I'm shooting .44s in comps...

Matching the OAL on both cases, resulting in the same case capacity beneath seems one way to do this with bullet depth being the only variable (and thereby perhaps a stronger crimp too) that I can think of.

Still certain if posters agree with that logic or not....:confused:

Just wondering, are you getting any bullet jump with your plated bullets without a crimping groove in magnum level loads? I have no experience with the plated types.
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Minimal, so as to be insignificant: fractions of a mm.
The bullets are pretty soft, so the crimp bites.
 
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And this didn't answer the question either. Surprise, surprise.
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Thank you Gomer, I have many opportunities to use short cases. I do not use short cases because I believe it is a bad habit. My cases protect the chamber, I want my cases to cover all the chamber that is possible.

Then there is your problem with being short on cases. If I was short and or needing something the last thing I would want to do was get ‘snarky’ with someone that could help.

F. Guffey
 
You will have no problem doing what you want as long as you have enough bullet inside your special cases for the crimp to hold with the OAL being the same that you use for your magnum loads.

If you have access to older reloading manuals such as a Speer #11 you will see that varying the case lengths was done for silhouette loadings for .357 magnum to use 180 grain bullets.

I load magnum pressures in a .44 Special but then I have one of the limited production S&W 624s. What you proposing is going the opposite route and other then a crud ring it will not do damage to your handgun.

For a while I even cut .44 Magnum cases down to the maximum length that my 624 will handle which is longer then standard .44 Specials and shorter then .44 Magnum.

WARNING DO NOT FOLLOW THIS RECIPE

I was using 296 and had worked up to 24 grains with a 200 grain bullet with virgin cases with no problems and no signs of over pressure. Once I ran out of virgin cases I ran into problems as the cases would stick on firing so I tried to back down and I ran into the typical 296 problems so I switched to Unique.
 
When I started playing with my .44 Magnums about 28 years ago I tried many combinations of loads and brass. I have loaded .44 Special brass to a bit over mid-magnum levels and used light Special loads in my Magnum brass. I had no problems with any of my 5, .44 Magnums and no obvious pressure signs (I even loaded my Magnums with some 123 gr. round balls and a dusting of Bullseye). I didn't bother with any reduction formula and I don't own a chrony so my example is kinda web hearsay...:rolleyes

BTW I clean my guns regularly after each shooting session and have never experienced the dreaded "carbon ring"...
 
As JT pointed out, it has long been done in .38-.357 with the double crimp groove Thompson design bullet.
There are USPSA and ICORE shooters loading .38 Short Colt brass to .38 Special ballistics for better extraction.
You are pretty well on your own developing similar loads in .44 with Vihtavuori powder.

Some old guy name of Elmer Keith said that his heavy .38 Special load was more accurate than early factory .357s, in the magnum guns. I wouldn't worry much about the "jump."
 
If I was short and or needing something the last thing I would want to do was get ‘snarky’ with someone that could help.
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Operative word there: "could".

Not, "did" or "will" by answering my question, but "could"....

I'm sorry you're offended, but so am I. I have asked dozens of questions and you have never, ever answered in a useful manner: you only ever take the chance to quote some obscure personal anecdote that is tangential at best...

Should I be grateful?

If you want to help then help: here is the question again.

Assuming light to mid magnum charges, can I safely use Spl cases if I set their OAL to magnum lengths and perhaps adjust the crimp to achieve the same performance as that same powder charge in regular Mag cases?

Over to you.

You will have no problem doing what you want as long as you have enough bullet inside your special cases for the crimp to hold with the OAL being the same that you use for your magnum loads.
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Thanks for this. That is useful information.

Some old guy name of Elmer Keith said that his heavy .38 Special load was more accurate than early factory .357s, in the magnum guns. I wouldn't worry much about the "jump."
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Jump is one part. There is also the aspect of having a back up supply of brass that I can use as a "stand-in" if I run out
 
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There is also the aspect of having a back up supply of brass
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That was what motivated Skeeter Skelton to load long .38 Specials to shoot in .357 guns. He had free .38 brass available from his agency range.
 
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My dad bought this around 1985. Its an N Farame Smith 624 44 special.
One day My dad asked me to fire a few hot loads he had. I fired 3 and handed 3 back saying too much.

Thirty years later, one of those three found there way into my one day old bulldog. It can happen. They did not hurt the smith. Charter gave me a new gun.

I load specials in special cases. I understand your situation.
Do as you wish.

David
 
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