Scopes for Muzzleloader Hunting in CA?

Whisk

New member
:confused: Was in gun store the other day picking up my 50 cal muzzle loader talking to gunsmith about scoping them. I made the statement: "In CA, for muzzleloader only tags (hunts) you cannot have a scope."

Some old feller behind me pipes up and says: "Yer wrong son...... I spent hours on the phone the other day and got the game warden who finally gave me an answer to interpret the last paragraph in 353 and you can use a Red Dot!.... You jist didn't read far enough sonny...."

Well sir, I came back, re-read the law and I still say I'm right. I called the head office in Sacto even and the dude there told me: "I've got some people out in the Field Offices I'm gonna be talking to..... If they are putting out that kind of info we are going to have some people getting their vehicles and gear confiscated in muzzleloader only hunts......I don't want to see that..."

I wish you COULD use Red Dots, believe me, as I just can't get these old eyes to properly line up a front and rear site. Maybe I'll try a Lyman, etc. rear peep site. That might work>

Anyone had this come up :confused:
 
Everybody with eye problems had this problem in Oklahoma, not long ago, and we finally convinced the powers at large, to see that hunting, when you can't make accurate shots, just leads to more wounded, and never found, deer.

You will get argument about scoped MLs, but the truth is, that it is prejudice, to allow only people with 20/20 eyesight, to hunt. People will tell you that if you wear glasses that it will let you shoot open sights. That's a bunch of bull. I wear glasses, and I cannot get a clear sight picture from back sight,to front bead, to the game, all at the same time. One of them remains blurry, know matter what. Without a scope, I am unable to take a good clear shot, and I feel that I should have as much right to hunt now, as I did when I was 16 years old, and had great eyesight.

I would urge you and your freinds, to get a list of your politicians, and call their offices, and raise as much hell as it takes, to get them to start listening. That's what we did here in Oklahoma.
 
I figure the powers that be out here in Californy are trying to regulate the effectiveness of "primitive arms" as the new inline 209 primered 1:24 bbls guns of today take down elk at 200 and glass makes it just that much easier.

I don't know.

I agree with you, the upshot to me is that us old(er) farts can't effectively hunt muzzle loaders and that ain't fair in anybody's book.

I know this, out here in CA a Game Warden can take yer rig, guns, everything.

Even on yer own property.

And the laws are not that well written..............
 
Interesting Take: "Use Disabilities Act (ADA) For Hunters Rights"

Crusading for muzzleloaders with scopes

Missouri man hopes to get Uncle Sam to sway wildlife managers in 15
states to accept optic sights during big-game, black-powder-only rifle hunts

By Mark Freeman
Medford Mail Tribune — Sept. 5, 2006

A muzzleloading rifle with a quality scope is thought to allow more precise shot placement, resulting in quicker, cleaner and more humane harvest of game. MEDFORD, Ore. — Toby Bridges insists that modern-day muzzleloaders — black-powder rifles fitted with high-powered optic scopes — are not primitive hunting's version of the married bachelor or military intelligence.

"It's no more an oxymoron than referring to an engine in terms of horsepower," said Bridges, a 57-year-old gun-product tester in Missouri.

"When you get past the appearance," he said, "there's nothing 20th century about this weapon."

This crusader for muzzleloaders with scopes now believes he's found a 21st century way to force Oregon and 14 other states to accept optic sights during big-game muzzleloader rifle hunts.

And he hopes to get Uncle Sam to poke Oregon's wildlife managers in the eye on his behalf.

After years of failing to convince Oregon and other states to embrace scopes as legal during controlled muzzleloader hunts, Bridges hopes a discrimination complaint at the Department of the Interior will give Oregon about 5 million reasons to follow suit.

The complaint taps into the federal agency's policy against providing federal financial assistance to state programs or activities that unlawfully discriminate against anyone based on everything from race to age and disability.

The agency further describes discrimination as denial of services, aids or benefits, segregation or "separate treatment."

The complaint claims the optics ban segregates and discriminates against aging muzzleloaders and others with poor eyesight who need scopes to shoot as well as able-eyed muzzleloaders can.

The complaint wants the federal agency to withhold all its assistance to fish and wildlife programs in Oregon, Washington, California, Alaska and other states until they welcome optics in black-powder hunts. That includes about $5 million to the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife this fiscal year.

"When I read this policy, it dawned on me that I don't have to take on these individual states anymore," Bridges said. "The Department of the Interior has to."

"My goal is to make sure muzzleloaders from coast to coast get equal opportunity and equal rights," said Bridges, who runs the fledgling North American Muzzleloader Hunting Association in Missouri.

The Department of the Interior has accepted his complaint. The case has been referred to Doug Gentile, who handles discrimination claims at the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service's offices in Virginia.

Gentile was recently unavailable for comment.

Oregon has purposefully chosen to keep a tight reign on weaponry during its muzzleloader and archery hunts, two of the so-called "primitive" hunts.

Put a scope on top of any black-powder weapon and "it no longer becomes a primitive weapon," said Ron Anglin, the state's Wildlife Division administrator.

Anglin said Oregon's various muzzleloader hunts are designed based on success rates with primitive weaponry.

The rifle shown here is representative of the modern technology that much of today's muzzleloading hunters desire.
Add optics and success rates will increase, Anglin said. That means fewer available tags and, possibly, the withdrawal of some hunts, he explained.

"We've received requests for scopes in the past," Anglin said. "When we've explained it, people have backed off."

Not Bridges. He chides Anglin and others for hiding behind an argument that denies history and bends language.

An American innovation, the first scopes appeared in the 1840s and were designed specifically for black-powder rifles, Bridges said.

William Malcom launched the first, mass rifle-scope manufacturing in 1855 in Syracuse, N.Y., and those scopes were made specifically for black-powder rifles. Civil War black-powder snipers lived, and killed, by optics.

Scopes, Bridges said, are as traditional as the black-powder rifles themselves.

"These guys pick and choose what they wan't to be part of tradition," Bridges said. "If they're going to embrace tradition, they need to embrace it all. That includes telescopic rifle sights.

"The 1855 Malcom scope is pretty primitive."

While Bridges clearly is relying on a technicality of Department of the Interior rules to strong-arm Oregon into accepting modern-day muzzleloading, Oregon wildlife biologists are hoping a technicality keeps him at bay.

Oregon statutes don't outlaw scopes on muzzleloaders. They outlaw scopes exclusively during muzzleloader-only hunts.

"You can use a muzzleloader with a scope during general (rifle) seasons," said Larry Cooper, the state's deputy administrator of the wildlife divisions. "We're not actually prohibiting anyone from using it then."

When Bridges began stumping for modern-day muzzleloaders in 1988, only 17 states allowed them. That more than doubled to 35 by 1998, when the Bridges' crusade hit a wall.

"The holdouts seem to be in the Northwest," Bridges said. "Of all the states, Oregon has the most backward regulations in the nation, as far as modern-day muzzleloaders are concerned."

Bridges believes he's struck a chord among black-powder hunters for standing up for the little guy … in this case, the old and poor-eyed of Oregon's passionate black-powder ilk.

"Nobody else is standing up for the rights of modern-day muzzleloader hunters," he said.

Contact Mark Freeman at mfreeman@mailtribune.com.
 
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