School board meeting-When to shoot?

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motorhead0922

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You've seen the video of Clay Duke vs the school board. Let's suppose that firearms were legally allowed in the meeting by law abiding citizens. At what point do you legally draw and fire? While he was brandishing? When he aims at the man?
 
All I have to say is, someone waving a gun around would be construed as a threat to your life. The V for Vendetta on the wall would just be the cherry on the sundae.:eek:
 
I agree, the minute a gun is produced you're in a gun fight. At that point, acting instantly is, I believe, defensible. My gosh, what else would you wait for? He doesn't have to pull the trigger to show his intent.
 
If I had been carrying in that room, the time I would have drawn and shot was when he turned away from the audience and pointed the gun at the lady. A distracted shooter is less likely to pick up your movement.
 
I don't know if I've seen the whole clip, but I think at the point when he puts down the spray paint and starts using the gun to point out who will stay and who can go...
 
It's difficult without being there, but I would agree, that at some point, a combination of the gun being displayed in any type of threatening manor, and his body language or verbal threats, would constitute the situation of imminent danger to life. And, therefore allow you to subdue the threat, legally.
 
When the gun comes out, the gun comes out.

And the gun only comes out when it's going to shoot.

It was simple dumb luck that the guy kept missing; there could have been quite a body count before he got stopped, if he'd known how to shoot.


Larry
 
I read that he was a felon because of an incident involving his wife. Something to do with a rifle and stalking and shooting out the tires of her vehicle, preventing her escape...

The school super appeared to have a spare tire around his mid-section. Perhaps it wasn't the BG's intent to hit his target, but merely to appear to be trying to...
 
When the gun comes out, the gun comes out.

And the gun only comes out when it's going to shoot.
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Interesting, but not exactly befitting the situation. He didn't shoot for several minutes.

With that said, once out, I would consider him a threat.
 
Maybe I'm "missing" something, but I watched the video three or four times, and the guy got off one "aimed" shot, followed by an AD into the floor, before being taken out. Two shots, one directed at the board members. Is there more than one version of the video?
 
Thanks for your responses. This is one of those fine lines I want to know how to negotiate. I don't know about Florida where the event occurred, but here in Missouri the threat must be eminent. I don't know that walking around holding a gun or even waving it up in the air is an eminent threat. Now, the instant he points at someone, I consider it my moral obligation to bring him down.
 
There is no checklist, no cheat sheet and no when-to-shoot card. Each situation is different.

Nothing wrong with discussing it.

We do scenarios in Tactics and Training.

Moving.
 
Ok I have an interesting comment, something that actually happened, & suprisingly no one had a gun to defent themselves. it would have been a totally different outcome.

quite a few years ago, the Hospital where I used to live, had the local police come in & act as terrorist, they were not in uniform. they were supposedly were testing the employees, & their guns were unloaded, they came in holding employees at gun point, real guns, & forcing employees to floor, & demanding drugs.

not one employee knew this "drill" was supposed to happen, only some upper management, as well as police knew it was a drill, but all the employees were terrorized, & threatened at gun point by the police. no one was hurt during that drill.

It made paper, then employees sued for that & anxiety & nightmares, etc. I forget what exactly was sued for, & then it got hushed over. but what would have happened if a citizen carrying or a hospital employee had been carrying, it was against rules for a employee to carry, but wasnt for citizens to carry. now during a staged terrorist attack, what would have been the outcome if a few officers had been "shot in the line of duty"???? no badges showing, no uniforms, & came rushing in demanding people to floor, & demanding drugs. holding guns to employees heads, sure sounds like something they should not have done. I guess it was good they didn't have any armed employees, or citizens, my cousin would have been armed, but wasnt working when it happened, & quit because of that incident, & not trusting employer. they said they would have shot them a few "terrorist" & it would have got out of hand quick, & would they have probably gone to prison & maybe got the death penalty for defending themselves? especially since they would have shot an officer in the line of duty?

Randy
 
If you are up on your SA, you could see that as he was spray painting the red V, he was obviously a rightie using his left hand to spray awkwardly. That naturally draws the eyes to the right hand, wondering what it was doing. In this case, the right hand in the pocket was an immediate clue.

I would have already had my grip on my gun. The second he drew from the pocket, I would have double tapped. No doubt in my mind.

In this case, SA was key.
 
From a tactics/training standpoint, this was a disaster.

Your first clue things are going badly is when a guy spray paints the wall and produces a weapon. That generally doesn't bode well.

When said person starts ordering certain people to leave and others to stay, that historically means that he's singling out people he intends to harm.

If you're going to play the hero and engage the bad guy, you'd better be able to stop him, because if you fail, there's a good chance that you're the one who pushed him over the edge. That stupid woman with the purse could have gotten other people killed in addition to herself.

When an irrational, armed person displaying the above behaviors comes around the desk, gets within arms' reach, and turns his back, act. It may be your last chance.

Lastly, if you have a chance to negotiate with someone like that, taking a condescending tone and suggesting that they're trying to perform suicide by cop is not the best way to calm them down.

The people in that room have no idea how fortunate they are.
 
Anyone know what type of handgun he had? How did he miss (other than being a lunatic)?
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Being a lunatic doesn't cause one to miss. Being unskilled and untrained certainly can. He flinched. Then he had an ND. The security guard (retired local detective) apparently missed some as well before hitting the guy in the leg. He apparently flinched as well, but was not a lunatic.

When said person starts ordering certain people to leave and others to stay, that historically means that he's singling out people he intends to harm.
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...or are people he intends to take hostage.

If you're going to play the hero and engage the bad guy, you'd better be able to stop him, because if you fail, there's a good chance that you're the one who pushed him over the edge. That stupid woman with the purse could have gotten other people killed in addition to herself.
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Yeah, aren't the anti-gunners worried about us trying to stop a bad guy by using our guns, that we will harm the wrong person, get harmed, or get others harmed.

If the person is on edge, it isn't our fault if we do something to save our lives that "pushes him over the edge." Doing anything or not doing something may push him over the edge.

I notice you didn't say anything about about the security guard who asked the gunman if his gun was real. Don't you think that could have pushed him over the edge with such a questioning of his capabilities?

Of course, that woman may be the one that rattled him sufficiently that he could not shoot straight.

Lastly, if you have a chance to negotiate with someone like that, taking a condescending tone and suggesting that they're trying to perform suicide by cop is not the best way to calm them down.
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Or maybe it will be the reality check the guy needs. He certainly announced that he was going to die already. Of course, just as soon as they provide all educators with extensive courses in hostage negotiations and regular updated training, we should be good to go, eh? I don't think it was a good idea either, I think the direction the board headed was going was to try to keep some control of the situation. The gunman did not appear to react negatively to the comments or even to being attacked by the woman.

The people in that room have no idea how fortunate they are.
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Somehow, I think they do.
 
That "stupid woman with a purse" is a hero; while she was distracting him the other should have rushed and tackled him. And if his head happens to hit the tile floor or the corner of a table really hard in the process, or he catches a ballpoint pen in the neck, that's his bad luck.

quite a few years ago, the Hospital where I used to live, had the local police come in & act as terrorist, they were not in uniform. they were supposedly were testing the employees, & their guns were unloaded, they came in holding employees at gun point, real guns, & forcing employees to floor, & demanding drugs.

not one employee knew this "drill" was supposed to happen, only some upper management, as well as police knew it was a drill, but all the employees were terrorized, & threatened at gun point by the police. no one was hurt during that drill.
Click to expand...
I remember reading about that and thinking about how many improvised weapons there are in a hospital (especially various sharps and gas cylinders)
 
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