Scenario

S

Steelers252006

New member
My wife asked me this yesterday, and I forgot to run it by the CCW instructor when I saw him at the gun show. I know the three basic rules to take in to account of the legalities of brandishing your firearm are, 1, am I somewhere I'm allowed to be, 2, do I fear I'm in a dire situation, and, 3, did I start the confrontation.

You have to take these in to account obviously. You cannot start a fight with some guy, he comes at you, and then you shoot him. You cannot walk on someone's private property, they came at you, and then shoot them. You canot be arguing with someone 10 feet away, get mad 'cause they call you a sissy boy, and just shoot them. Rule of thumb is to get as far away as you can and call the police, period.

What about this one? Let's say I'm in parking lot with my wife, and a guy runs by and grabs her purse that has her wallet with a thousand bucks and a fiream in the purse just for example. Point is there's a weapon and monetary value there. But even if not, I yell stop and chase the guy. I assume you cannot shoot him to get the purse back? What if you tracked him and he turns to whack you? You're pursuing him, not the other way around. This to me is a little bit of a "Gray" area. I would assume by law you COULD NOT pull your firearm here as you are not in immediate danger. I akin this, however, to someone busting down your front door, you see him, he grabs your wallet off the counter and hauls tail. Can you chase after him with your gun? Two different scenarios, but I'm curious to see what others think.
 
2 was worded wrong. Do I fear for my life would be the proper way to state that, i.e, couple of punks walking up to you getting ready to stab you and rob you. Thanks.
 
In general your life has to be in danger. I would call the police and hold the bad guy until the police arrive once they are cornered. The presence of your wife's purse etc would be evidence enough to justify your pursuit as far as I'm concerned.
 
What if the bad guy did not stop, and you could not hold him there? Then he can just take off with your stuff right in front of you, and you're powerless to do anything about it?
 
The question my wife asked me, sorry about the convoluted question, was could you pull the gun if someone robbed you and took off real quick, such as grabbing her purse and running. I would assume NO, but I wanted to see what others thought.
 
Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy need to be proven if you use lethal force. This is the case in almost all jurisdictions; if you can prove all three, you are set.

Ability means your attacker has the ability to cause you death or grave bodily harm. They are holding a gun, knife, or other weapon. They are a martial artist and you are not. There are three of them and one of you. They are a man and you are a woman. Etc.

Opportunity means they have the capability of using the ability against you. They have a gun and are close to you with no cover in between. They have a knife and are very close to you. Opportunity does not exist if they are running away with a purse, for example, or if someone else is holding them down.

Jeopardy means you are in fear for your life. They could be holding a loaded gun 10 feet in front of you, but if they aren't looking at you, or are holding their hands up in surrender, you do not have jeopardy. Many people say being in fear for your life is enough, but that's not the case. You could be walking at night by yourself and a "shady" character approaches you, but does not exhibit either of the above, for example.

If you can prove all three of these things to a jury, you will most likely be OK anywhere in the United States. Two of the three aren't enough.

This was paraphrased from Kathy Jackson (pax) and Mark Walters excellent book Letters from Armed America. I highly recommend you pick it up as it will answer a lot of questions like this.

Also check this out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper#Combat_Mindset_-_The_Cooper_Color_Code

You should always be in condition yellow when carrying.
 
..., I yell stop and chase the guy.
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No.
You do not chase the guy.


Here's why....

1) There's nothing in the purse that cannot be replaced.

2) He might be leading you in to a trap where his friends are waiting to waylay you....
You almost have him, he turns a corner, you turn the corner and "BAM", lights out.

3) He might be luring you away from your wife, leaving her to the mercy of his friends....
You chase him, he ditches the purse and gets away, you recover the purse and return only to find your wife missing.


BTW, this illustrates why women should not carry their handgun in their purse.
 
Complicated question.

Some states have (i think) different rules based just on a firearm being stolen.

Others allow lethal force to stop felonies.

In other places lethal force is allowed to stop someone who has committed a *violent* felony.

Then, you have the complications of Penal Code versus case law.

Complex question.
 
What if the bad guy did not stop, and you could not hold him there? Then he can just take off with your stuff right in front of you, and you're powerless to do anything about it?
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Lawful Lethal force would not be justified, you and your loved one are not in immediate life or death situation when the BG is running away.

Now, if you can prove he started a running gun battle ????

Your not a police officer, so if you draw down on a guy your focus should only be for your escape to safety, not to prone him out and hold for the calvary. You can order him to do so, but if he runs let him.

Same goes if you shoot someone you need to get to safety,until the calvary arrives. You never approach the BG your attempts at helping are your calls to police
 
In my state, you could present your weapon during a robbery as lethal force is allowed to be used for a forcible felony such as robbery, but once the robbery is over and perp is leaving, your rights end.
 
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Always keep in mind the one simple rule that shooting someone is almost always best avoided.

Yes, sometimes, for any number of reasons, it needs to be done.

But you really want to ask yourself, does it REALLY need to be done.

Fact is, it's almost certain to dramatically screw up your life for a good long while. Whether it be money, stress, court, whatever.

The aftermath is almost certain to severely suck. Avoid it at all costs, but a very few... The life of you and yours and possibly other innocents. Even dealing with other innocents can get ugly.

Shooting someone is going to suck. Big time. Avoid it when possible.
 
Check with a knowledgeable and qualified attorney in your area. Rules are different for each state, and there may be other differences by county or municipality.
 
The parking lot scenario where a bad guy (BG) grabs your wife’s purse and runs off with it…

A very, very similar situation recently occurred in Minneapolis. BG hits 50+ year old woman with his handgun and runs off with her purse. A CCW sees the action and goes after the BG, catches him and they have a confrontation. The BG threatens the CCW and the CCW shoots and kills the BG. The case hung on the fence for a while and last I heard the authorities were NOT going to charge the CCW.

Please note: the CCW did NOT shoot the BG because he had stolen a purse. He shot the BG because the BG threatened his life.

It’s been discussed a lot. Read about it here:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=466285

Note: IMhO it’s very likely in a different city the legal results might have been different.
 
Short answer: in the situation you described, simply do not chase the purse snatcher.

Long answer: forcibly confronting someone over property, whether you have a weapon or not, is a bad idea. By doing so, you put your own safety, and possibly the safety of others, in jeopardy unnecessarily. If a thief grabs something and runs away, chances are he's only interested in what he grabbed and not in doing physical harm to anyone. By chasing the thief, you run a risk of backing him into a corner to where he feels that he has no choice but to fight his way out. The way I look at it, it is the job of the police to pursue and subdue thieves, not mine and if I wanted to chase thieves I'd become a police officer.

Now, some will say that you are obligated to pursue the thief in he scenario you describe because you have, in effect, provided him with a weapon that he may use to do harm upon others. I don't really buy that either. In the situation you describe, the purse snatcher has no way of knowing that there is a weapon inside the purse. This tells me that the thief is after money, credit cards, cell phones, prescription drugs, or other valuable items that are commonly carried in ladies' purses. I have no reason to believe that he intends to do harm upon others with the gun he just stole because he doesn't even know that he stole it yet. My thought on the matter is that if you're concerned about having a weapon stolen, you should probably be looking for the most secure means of carry available and off-body carry is not it.
 
to the OP

you think that is a gray area? Try a college student carrying on his weekend at a bar(legally OR even not at a bar but close by), shooting another agressor college student(young adult)

...been a long time since my college days, but I'm glad I didn't carry in that gray area

your answer depends on the state and laws But actually doesn't if this guy did in fact try to 'kill' you(defining your terminology):

...tracked him and he turns to whack you
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You have a right to defend yourself, and this would meet the criteria
 
peacefulgary

where do you draw the line:

would've you have a 2million dollar lottery ticket in your wife's purse?

would've you have anitvenom for a snakebite and are heading to your bro-in-law's?

ourageous examples? no...two examples of an infinite amount that could ring true.

whether he can chase or not isn't based on whether he has a gun. Therefore, he is allowed to chase. I get your point, property isn't as important as your life and ambushes happen(Sioux Indians used this tactic to Perfection)...amubush might be wrong word(going by your example), but the Siouz would show up and let you chase(basically gave you a rope and let you hang yourself).

If you chase and this person turns to "whack" you, you are justified to shoot otherwise head off with the grim reaper for an early unplanned, impromtu dinner...
 
peetzakilla

Complex question
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doesn't change the fact that you have the right to pursue right or wrong, stupid or smart:

no law states you do not have the right to chase a thief, and no law states that, 'well you can chase a thief but only if you have no firearm'.

the main, first issue(even though there might be others answered/decided as well in the aftermath when everything is sorted out) is that this man can defend himself with lethal force if this burglar turns and tries to 'whack' him which is a very defining term.

The OP said nothing about trying to shoot this guy in the back, raising and pointing a gun while chasing the perp, etc, etc. He is a citizen carrying a CCW in self-defense who happens to be chasing a robber for whatever reason: too much testosterone, 2 million dollar lottery ticket, his manhood, instinct, and so-on(all rather pointless examples I know but being a defense lawyer would be fun//sometimes//:D)
 
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