Scenario #3

H

Hansen

New member
Scenario # 3


A man was out shopping with his 5 year-old daughter. While in the parking lot outside a local strip mall, 2 armed robbers rushed out of a liquor store with their guns in clear view. The man directed his daughter to get down low and stay behind a near-by parked car. The man took out his 8 shot semi-auto (no additional ammo) and while using the parked car for cover, identified himself and for the robbers to “drop their weapons”. The robbers immediately turned toward the man and began firing. The man returned fire until he was out of ammo. At some point during the fire fight, the man’s daughter was stuck and killed by a ricochet round. The robbers were able to get away.






1. What if anything would you have done differently?


2. Was deadly force justified in this incident?


3. Could this have been prevented?
 
1. get your (the) kid down and behind you, draw weapon but keep under cover (inside jacket or open your shirt). stay down unless confrounted.
2. probably not but you have to be there to make that call.
3.the robbery no the shooting of the five year old probably.
 
You are not the hero, you are not the world's protector!

Pull your gun and get ready to defend yourself, hide your daughter as best you can, get a good description of the men, get a plate on the getaway car if possible. Do not intervene, do not try to stop them.

Too many CCWr's have the God complex thinking they are there to save the world.

This guy might as well have shot his daughter himself.

New
 
Something quite similar to this actually happened several years ago.

An off-duty L.A. County Reserve Deputy Sheriff and his 3-year old son entered a "Mom & Pop"-type market. While they were in the store, an armed robber entered and approached the sales counter.

The reserve deputy, who was armed, figured that a canned food display on one of the store aisles would afford his son good "cover", so he had his son hide behind the display. Then, the reserve cautiously moved closer to where the armed robbery was in progress. The reserve deputy later said that he definitely had the "drop" on the suspect.

Well, the reserve deputy played it "by the book", by loudly identifying himself as a police officer, and demanded that the suspect drop his firearm. Instead of complying, the suspect "point-shot" in the direction of the reserve deputy's voice. The deputy returned fire, wounding the suspect, but more rounds were fired. The suspect began running toward the exit of the store as the gun battle continued.

Lots of "stray" rounds were fired, mostly by the suspect. Sadly, one of those stray rounds struck the 3-year old boy in the head, killing him!

While it may have been "honorable" that the reserve deputy tried to put a stop to the robbery, he was hampered by the presence of his young son inside the store. Had the reserve deputy NOT taken any action, the suspect MAY have simply carried out the robbery without firing his weapon.

This incident struck home with me, for I was a LEO, and my wife and I had twins. I often walked our toddlers down to the local 7-11 store for "goodies".

Would I have gotten involved, if a robbery took place while I had my kids in the 7-11 store? NO WAY! Oh, I would have drawn my off-duty firearm and have it ready, but I would have shielded my kids and NOT shoot unless it became necessary!
 
1.) I agree -- draw weapon, but no need to draw attention to yourself. Getting and hiding behind cover is important, not just for protection, but odds are these guys are looking to escape, and may not bother with further attacks if they don't see you (or recognize you as a threat).

2.) Doesn't sound like these guys were a direct threat, but if they were storming toward me with guns drawn I might feel otherwise, regardless of their actual intentions.

3.) It sounds as though that the little girl's life might have been spared if her father hadn't chosen to engage the bad guys here. I say "chosen" because with the fact pattern as presented, the BGs would not necessarily have engaged the protagonist.
 
+1 on most of the comments so far.

If you are out with your wife, your child or both, you should not engage unless or until your family has made it to safety.

In the scenario, I would have moved myself and child behind the front end of a vehicle, using the engine block and front tire to protect the child. I'm certain I would have unholstered, but simply kept down and observed.

With the information provided, lethal force is probably not justified. No shots were being fired during the departure from the liquor store -- and while it might be "obvious" what was going on, unless an alarm was ringing the citizen probably didn't know for sure.

Preventable? Absolutely. Your first duty is to get yourself and those with you to safety. Second, unless lives are directly threatened do not engage.
 
+1 again, I agree with BillCA completely.

In addition, engaging under those circumstance is unbelievably stupid because
A) He's already outnumbered (and probably outgunned)
B) As I posted in your "scenario #2" thread, Assuming that the bad-guys you see are the only ones present is just stupid. Once engaged there could be a third, fourth, etc. armed bad guy waiting in the getaway car or whatever. Maybe even waiting right behind you.

Engaging in that scenario is seriously bad mojo.
 
If they're runnin' off with a bottle o' Thunderbird and a handful of cash, let 'em go. Try not to be noticed while protecting the kid.

Biker
 
I would have got my daughter and myself behind a car. I would put my daughter behind a tire just in case they started shooting. Other than that, I would have dialed 911 and watched very closely. If they don't threaten me or someone else, no use in getting involved.
 
I wouldn't have tried to take on a gang of armed robbers with 8 shots and no reloads with my little girl present if I didn't have to. If I did, then I wouldn't ID myself, I'd just use the advantage of surprise and start taking them out. I would also be sure I knew who and what my target was. Yes deadly force was justified (depending on your state laws of course) as the armed robbers were using deadly force against either you or those around you.
 
Again, liquor stores are insured. No amount of money is worth being killed over. This guy chose poorly. Proper action would have been to take cover until the robbers had left, and then leave the area.
 
^ it's not about some booz, but about the fact that there are dangerous men in the vicinity that are willing to kill innocent people including you.
 
Ayoob described this happening to an officer in a mall. Left his daughter safe and then she was bushwacked and killed.

Let's cut to the chase - the actor is God's idiot. Anyone who acted the way he did is mentally deficient.

The reasonable response to lay low and do what you need to avoid this and only, only if necessary fight to protect the kid.
 
Based on what was described it would appear:
-until then no shots had been fired
-BG were leaving the scene
-If not challenged they would have probably departed (my conjecture)

My actions would be:
-Place child in best position for protection as mentioned behind engine block/wheel
-Unholster firearm and hold in concealed postion
-continue to carefully observe BG yet remain unseen if possible
-Call 911
-provide detailed description including license plate# (if possible) to police

I am not a LEO, hence I should not behave like one.
 
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Endangering a childs life just to stop two robbers?
Only a total idiot would do such a thing.

Sometimes you gets the bear, and sometimes the bear gets you.

In other words...you can't stop EVERY crime.
 
Now in senario number 2, I preached about protecting life and what not. That was when I was one being directly threatened by said robbers, and only after they had started shooting other people.

In this senario, your greater responsibility is to yourself and your family. When the cops get there, the last thing they need is to be worrying about some gun-ho civilian rootin' and tootin' his piece in the crosswalk. Get yourself and your daughter out of harms way. Your biggest responsibility is to keep yourself safe, and in this type of senario, that means letting everyone fend for themselves. Yeah, I'm going to feel bad if I was retreating and ended up watching them going in the opposite direction and killing a woman to get her car, but I'm alive.

The only way I draw and engage in this senario is if they're bearing down on me. When they make eye contact with me and I get that feeling that it's me or them, it's gonna be them.
 
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