Savior(and a lot of other things)

K

Kevinw

Moderator
I just saw this movie and I must say, if there has ever been a more compelling movie that shows why we should help others I don't know what it is. No maybe we are not the world police but dammit how can we, as humans, let **** like this happen. Yes we have our own problems. Yes we have a war to fight with our own leaders. But these are wars of words. We do not have a government that is involved in the wholesale slaughter of it's own people. Oh I know you will all mention the Branch Davidians but lets face it. While that was a pathetic and ignorant move by our government it is not on the level with the killing of thousands and thousands of people just because they have a slightly different religion. Or because they speak a different language.

Maybe I grow tired of the hate. The anger we all feel. I mean just look at this board even. Support of a statement by a man in Chicago that wants to start killing people. We speak of armed rebellion. But I wonder how many of us really know what that means. I think I just realized what it means. It would mean the wholesale destruction of our country.
The Anti's are right on one count. This is no longer the late 1700s now each one of us can kill many people. I mean think about it. Really think hard about what you are asking for.
The military will probably split 60/40 with us getting the larger group. However the government will keep control of most high tech equipment. But we will get most of the people trained with them I bet. Then we get the war that some people so thirst for. Do you think the last War between the states was bad. I predict a war of unspeakable horror. There is so much hate in this country that it is just waiting to explode.

DO we want to turn into another Serbia, or Germany, God help us if we do. That is what a war will get us. That is where these self proclaimed Militia groups will get us.
People seem to think that we will have a quick 14 day war of independence where we rush in and take over the capitol and win back freedom for everyone. That people are just waiting to rise up against our oppressive government. Well I hate to say it but they are not. Most will cower in their homes, others will even rush to defend the government. So go watch this movie. Watch the people kill their neighbors. Read accounts of people from the "Civil" war. Do any of you want to fight against your friends and neighbors. And remember that the people that would most likely start a war are the people who shout Kill them all. And remember "all" includes whoever they want. Any government employee some have said in the past. What about postal workers? Census workers? What happens when they gun down your best friend because he is also the mail carrier and therefore a government employee.
No we must not submit to tyranny. We must not allow ourselves to lose the rights that are ours by birth in this wonderful country. But for the love of god, or the creator, or Mother nature , or whatever you want to believe in. Do not even consider raising a hand against your fellow countrymen until every single other option has been exhausted. We are all Americans. Even Bill Clinton is an American. He may not be a good president. He may not deserve the post of President, and he may not agree with us. But dammit he is an American. Just as I am. Just as almost every one of you are. Ask a Serb, or Oleg one of our friends. Ask what happens to a Country that can not live with itself. I am reading about Shoemaker and it scares me. It scares me that so many support him. Oh his protest may be peaceful this time but that his not his goal. If it was he would not make statements about Killing. Peace is my goal. Peace and freedom. I know not of anyone else here. But I feel that most here think like I do.

Maybe I am becoming to human. Maybe I lack the ability to kill without compassion, without mercy. I believe in honoring your enemy. Do not kill an unarmed man, even if it means that he escapes. A gentle hand and not an Iron fist is my way. But any who know me also know this. Do not become a threat. Because I will take every means available to avoid a fight. But if I must fight I win. And maybe that sums it all up right there. Avoid battle. Work for peace. But do not forget that you can and must fight when the time comes. But never until that time. Not one instant before.

Well I guess I have gotten way off topic and probably pissed off a LOT of people. But I am tired of the killing in this world. I am tired of the hate. Of the anger. It is useless yet we all feel it, and see it every day. And in the end that hatred is what will take away everything that this country has worked for. Those who have given their blood so that we could live free would not approve I think. They would shake their heads and ask us with great sadness why we must once again lust for blood. I ask everyone who reads this to think. Before you act just think. Remember it is my blood and the blood of my children that you will spill along with your own.

Oh well a simple post about a movie and look where it got me. What can I say. Flame away my friends.
 
I can.

"Only the dead have seen the end of war" -- Old dead white guy said that once. Very true today.

And there's nothing new under the sun. The war in Bosnia and Kosovo was no more horrific than any other. Contrary to popular belief, there are no "good wars." Pure Hollywood myth. In many respects, WWII was just as messy as Vietnam. How about those French that cheered the Germans as they marched in to Paris? Most were shot at the end of the war. How about the Nazi rallies in the 30s which FILLED Madison Square Garden to capacity?

How can we stand by? Easy. When and how did the U.S. acquire the wisdom to start being the world's hall monitor?

I also saw the Savior and liked it. I initially saw Oliver Stoned's name associated with it and thought "oh no." There was definitely an anti-war sentiment, but I also saw in that film a lot of cold, hard realities, which is always good to see. One of those cold, hard realities nobody likes to face or admit to is that the unarmed and unprepared end up in mass graves. How far do you think that situation would have gone if the Serb police knew that behind every third door they kicked in was an Enfield or Shotgun and a Bosnian with nothing to lose? I'll tell you how long, about a week.

As far as the Balkanization of America, the Lefties are the ones promoting that agenda by working to destroy Americanism, Nationalism and our shared culture. Not to mention doing everything possible to exploit class envy and undermine national sovereignty.
 
Jack99 I don't see how we disagree. War is a terrible thing. I used a couple examples that would stick out in peoples minds.. But the cold hard fact is that anyone who WANTS a war, frightens me. I don't think you are saying you wnat one. All I mean is that we should think about what will happen before we rush in blindly to anything. I will no give up my Guns. I will not give up any of my rights. They can try to take them and they may yet do so. But there are other options that must be exauhsted first. That is my point. Look at it this way. Someone breaks into your house. You point a gun at him and have a standoff. He is not moving to be agressive. he may even be backing up slightly. Do you.
A: Call the police and tell them you have an intruder in your house.
B: Shoot him then and then call the police.
I don't know about anyone else but I choose A. I don't want bloodshed.
But if he came after me he would be on a slab in the mourge. Plain and simple. Things are not black and white. And any change that is worth it will take time. I don't know about anyone else here but I am not here so that I can have a gun. I am here so that my Children can have a gun. ANd go to the school they want to. and say what they want to. This isn't about us people. It is about those who have yet to come.
 
Very good post Kevin but I have to lean with Jack99 on this one. The reality of this world is that there will always be war, conflicts, oppression, deceits, etc. The day we claim to be so "human" that we can no longer resort to force to defend our rights and lives is the day we actually are slaves.

Regardless of our opposition's intent, beliefs and motivations, any attempt to force their agendas, whose result is the removal of our most sacred rights, no matter how cryptic or cloaked - they are to be fought at any and every opportunity. "Fought" can be regarded as being at the polls or from the business end of a firearm.

Kevin, no flame my friend but perhaps this "society" of our has has a slight pacifist effect on you - to the point that, as they intended, you are no longer willing to "fight"...?

CMOS

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NRA? Good. Now join the GOA!

The NRA is our shield, the GOA will be our sword.
 
I noticed that almost every veteran I know abhorrs war and conflict. They have been there, tried it, don't care for seconds. That is different from pacifism.

A real pacifist would not defend his life or the lives of dependents and many would hinder others in their efforts to defend themselves. A vet, or someone with brains, is afraid of going to war. He is reluctant to fight. However, on sober consideration, he knows that some fates are worse than combat...and THOSE fates he would oppose tooth and nail and hand grenades.

Any civil war is nasty. THAT is why soap box, ballot box and jury box come before the cartridge box. The cartridge box is, IMO, preferable to that other alternative...a pine box or a ditch you made for yourself. Civil war is like doing surgery on yourself. It is your last, desperate gamble and it may or may not work out...use good judgement on when to resort to it.

People who are enthusiastic about wars of any kind are nuts. People who recognize that it may be a bad but necessary alternative to worse fates are merely realistic.

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Oleg "peacemonger" Volk

http://dd-b.net/RKBA
 
Oleg Volk
Amen......I agree 100% with your post.
As you said....last resort....no options left, then pick up your weapon and lock & load.

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"Lead, follow or get the HELL out of the way."
 
Kevin,

I don't think we necessarily agree. You're worried about the Balkanization of America, which is a real possibility, and the destruction and hate it would bring. I'll go with you that far, it would be a terrible thing. But it's the Pinkos that are actively working to destroy and subvert Americanism. The rest of us are just scrambling to try and plug the thousands of leaks in the boat, so to speak.

The Shoemakers of the world aren't the problem. He's ill-advised for sure, but we've all got our limit and he's just reached his. I don't think he's the sharpest tack in the drawer and I don't think his "strategy" is going to achieve much, but that's his call not mine and I understand where he's coming from. Freedom, like Faith, is just rhetoric until its tested.

Man's inhumanity to man is a well covered topic. It's only natural to look at the world and ask, "what the f*&# are people thinking?" It's an interesting academic exercise but, like most philosophical/academic questions, its a useless activity. What really solves these types of problems is individualism. When individual citizens are empowered, including the RKBA, its hard to slaughter them. When the UN or some big gubmint entity has the masses under thier protective wing, bad things happen. Govts become corrupt, despots emerge and genocides happen. Too many examples to list.

Taking care of #1 isn't just good for #1, its actually good for all of society. I don't "want" a war either (nor do I think one will happen, those pushing the Balkanization process in this country are actively exploiting it to assume more control. One day, the process will be complete and we'll all be looking at each other asking "what happened?") but if the choices were A or B, I would take the fight over the submission.

And oh yeah, if someone forcibly enters my home while I'm there, they are dead, armed or not. I'll stick a steak knife in thier hand later.
 
One of the questions that I think needs to be asked is why someone might want to go to war? Is their enthusiasm about the opportunity to kill people or because they think it will be some great adventure? or because they understand, logically, that it is necessary. Any war will be terrible, but as Americans, we believe that living in tyranny is worse than any war. We are therefore willing to fight and die to ensure that doesnt happen.

The blood of our loved ones might flow and our nation might be nearly destroyed, but so long as there are brave people willing to die for freedom, America will live on.

That is the way to preserve our nation, and it might be done without having to pay such a drastic price. As long as tyrants are not as eager to sacrifice their lives as those they want to enslave, they will refrain from trying. The socialists must know that we will pay the price in blood, if need be. We must also be careful not to become closet socialists, those that will trade freedom for security. Losing the intestinal fortitude needed for keeping oneself free because of the terrible cost involved will only serve to quicken ones enslavement. The "war of words" goes on only till it is time to begin a different kind of war; one of more than words.

Freedom is not free.
 
Yep - Freedom is not free!

I do not want war at all. All I want is to live in peace as a free man and to be reasonably assured that my sons will live in peace as well.

I just think that the system is broke and it can't be fixed. I believe that there will be war (or there should be after all avenues are exhausted) and when it comes I want to be in a position to help out.

The problem is to ascertain when all options have been exhausted. I will await the outcome of Emerson and the next elections and see if anything gets better.

I personally think that a GWBush victory might be the worst thing that could happen in a way. Instead of Gore and the lefty lunatic fringe in power, we get 4 years of moderation but no roll-back. THe momentum of the Freedom Movement loses steam and when the lefty loonies come back, it takes 4 years to get everybody motivated and by then we're sunk.

If freedom needs to be returned to this nation by force, I would rather it happen now and not later when I am an old man and my sons have to go out and fight. I would spare them that. I would like to hand them the gift of freedom, fully paid.

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Thane (NRA GOA JPFO SAF CAN)
MD C.A.N.OP
tbellomo@home.com
http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/digital/237/cansite/can.html
www.members.home.net/tbellomo/tbellomo/index.htm
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.
In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains
seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all
must be most aware of change in the air - however slight -
lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
 
Hm.

Guerrilla- and perhaps, most- wars are not "won". Rather, one side loses the will to continue.

There will always be "wars and rumors of war". Such is human nature. Such is life.

"Bill Clinton is a American." And? And if he were something else (presumably) he would be worse? Rubbish. The man is a traitor, who has sold himself to the Chinese. I tend to decry the "black helicopter" crowd, but my last statement is fairly believable by anyone who's been paying attention the last few years. I would have more respect for an open enemy.

I grow tired of the hate, too- and, you know what? Typically, it's fostered by these same self-proclaimed pacifists. The people I associate with judge people by how they treat others, not the color of their skin, the area in which they were reared, or the belief they proclaim. They may not agree with your opinion, but they're willing to fight to see that you can keep it.
I'm tired of the hate, and I want to see it end. I want to see good men's reputation sullied no longer. I want to see honesty, openness, and love fostered. I want to see people raised to flourish in an environment of individual responsibility and freedom. I want to know that my children- should I be so blessed- are not made paupers, mere serfs of a burgeoning bureaucracy of tyrants. If necessary, I will fight for that. Fight? Ha! I will walk through hell, and rejoice that I can.

And I don't care if you're afraid.
 
Amen, Oleg, and as Claire Wolfe wrote, " America is at an awkward stage- it's clearly too late to accomplish anything working within the system, yet, it's still a little to early to just shoot the bastards"
crankshaft
nralife, goa, jpfo, fcsa, smvfm
 
William Clinton is an American. Jeffery Dahamer was an American. Both responsible for great human suffering. Our Republic was founded upon bloody land, why should we allow the blood spilled before to build this country go to waste?
 
"Freedom, like Faith, is just rhetoric until
its tested."

How right you are Jack99, and I think we are about to be put into the crucible in the coming years! Will we come through the scorching heat a new people, or will we succumb?

I so admire the 1st century Christians, who died (horribly) by the thousands by Nero's hand for their faith and beliefs. I pray that I have that kind of faith when "push comes to shove!"

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"Pray as if your life depends on God, Prepare as if it all depends on you..." -Texas Preacher
 
I am not eager for war. I do not want to die in any of the many horrible ways that you can be killed in combat. I do not want blood, not even the pinko's, if it can be avoided. But, as has already been said, there are worse fates than combat.

If someone broke into my house, then makes to flee, I will not fire. However, nor will I let him help himself to my possessions on the way out.

What scares me, is that it seems some of the gun bigots do want war. When you see them make statements like "why don't you gun @$$holes go away", "You all ought to be lined up and shot", "you belong in jail", "baby killer", and all the other ad naseum hateful rhetoric, I find it hard to hope that our freedoms can be reclaimed from the gov't trough without at least a few bloodied noses. If there must be revolution, I want it to come during my time here on earth. I do not want my daughter's husbands to be the ones to die at the hands of an uncaring and ruthless autocracy. If there's a battle that must be fought, I wish to be the one to fight it, so that my descendants can enjoy their freedom, already bought and paid for by men and women such as us.

As for Bill Clinton an American- for someone who refused the call to duty that I myself am subject to (and will fulfill if I must) and spent time in Europe protesting Vietnam when he should have been fighting... No, he is no more an American than Stalin, Hitler, or George III are. He lost the right to identify himself with us when he finagled his way out of being drafted and fled the country. The concepts of decency, honor, and humility are foreign to WJC.

Again, I do not want war, and will do what I can at the ballot and soap box to head it off, but when push comes to shove- I shove back!!!!

[This message has been edited by Jedi Oomodo (edited June 16, 2000).]
 
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