Savage 6a goes full auto and runs away

U

UpandAtIt

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Ok this one has stumped me. I have a Savage 6a 22lr tube fed Semi/Bolt made approx 1948. It was burping 2-3 round bursts. I bought new REAL parts from eGunparts.com and Popperts Guns Parts; sear, trigger, springs (to include the recoil spring) and firing pin. I reassembled it. Now it goes full run away auto until the ammo is gone after the first shot, kind of like a cook off on an open bolt Mac or other open bolt weapons. This is a closed bolt rimfire.

The back cap is screwed in all the way. I checked assembly against another working 6a and I honestly cannot find any difference. I even measured parts on the CMM at work and the difference is within +/- .0027 average for the bearing surfaces as compared to the working 6a.

This only happens when the bolt handle is in the position for semi auto use. In single action / single fire the BOLT does not do this. I thought maybe I was getting a shallow travel of the bolt and then the hammer does not lock back for semi auto use, but a slow mo film of it going full auto shows the bolt travels all the way back.

The only thing I have not measured yet are the various PIN holes of the full auto to the working piece, maybe some of the pin holes wore enough to dislocated the sear.

Any Savage smiths out there know what might be happening ?

I need to get this fixed before the feds say it is intentional.

6a.jpg


6a1.jpg
 
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Been a while, but I'll give it a shot. I don't know what you changed, but there are 2 "sear plungers". The rear one is the actual sear, the front one is supposed to catch the bolt when it goes rearward and hold it till the trigger is released. The one I fixed had a slight bend in the linkage that hooks the two plungers together so that when the rear one (sear) is down the front plunger is up and catches the bolt. I only had to straighten the link to make the plungers get back in time. Eyeball that and let us know the result. Here endeth the lesson. Goatwhiskers the Elder
 
Sounds to me like you're having two issues, first, the sear isn't catching the bolt, what SHOULD result in the gun not being cocked. But you're also getting slam fire from the firing pin extending from the bolt face, resulting in your FA fire.
 
Hi, great advice and lesson and I just checked it....the old one was fine and the new one was fine, here is a print from gunparts corp and the legend number of the parts I replaced.

This is the link to gunparts corp page for Savge 6a

http://www.e-gunparts.com/products_new.asp?CatID=742


This is the parts print (does not show how to put it together) I used an assembly guide for that and have checked it against the working Savage 6a.

Savage_6A6AB6B_schem.jpg


# 49, 47, 48, 69, 61, 63x2, 66, 67, 68, 51, 73, 38 / 56

All parts with a bearing surface were checked against known working parts, hardly any difference. The receiver, breech bolt and all parts were cleaned in a bath of Kroil in an untrasonic cleaner tray. I even checked spring tensions against the known good parts.

I will check the true Location of the holes this weekend and compare them to the known good pieces.
 
Does it auto fire if you hold the trigger firmly to the rear upon firing or does it catch the bolt and hold it till you release the trigger? Goat
 
In my experience it is darned hard to get those guns to fire semi-auto, let alone full.

Goatwhiskers is right on the two sears and the spring tension on them is critical.

The way that gun is supposed to work is that the gun is loaded normally and the trigger pulled. The shot is fired, the bolt comes back and locks. When the trigger is released, the bolt goes forward and chambers the next round.

This is different from most semi autos, but if it doesn't work that way, it is not working right.

Jim
 
Had an Stevens 87D .. same gun .. that did the same thing. Got it new for 9th birthday adn about 6 years later it would run full auto through the full magazine. Good that ammo was cheap then. I was 15 and it was wonderful on TX jackrabbits! :D The dealer I bought it from (White's Auto - now you know how long ago) said it will never be okay, just took it and handed me a new bolt action with 5 shot clip. Liked the auto but the bolt taught me to shoot! It went many miles on a John Deere tractor until I ran over it, broke the stock and bent the bbl. Still have the original Nylon 66 I replaced it with in 1959. I see the old Savage and Stevens on used racks occasionallly but guess I have had mine.
 
Goatwhiskers: It used to operate correctlyt and then all of a sudden I was getting 2-3 shot bursts. Then I changed to the new parts and Poof, full run away FA. Pulling the trigger back does nothing as does letting the trigger go, it expends the ammo and then shuts down.

Jim Keenan: Yes, that is how they should operate, the ole "Clakity Clack" sound. I own 4 of these and this is the first failure I have ever had on a Savage 6^ series. These are sturdy lil guns. You can often find them for $100 on Auction Arms and Gunbroker or at Gun Shows. I prefer them to any of the new semi autos that are cheaply built with aluminum receivers at $300 if you are not outbid right away. I personally do not need more than the 15 rounds this tube holds.

The biggest issue I have ever had when I get them and they are stiff is it needs a good full cleaning and Kroil soak in a ultrasonic cleaner tray. This cures 95% of any minor issues of FTE - FTFeed - Failure to fire, the rest are usually due to a loose back cap.

Mapsjanhere: Yes that is exactly what is happening, just cannot for the life of me figure out why.

It may come down to me destroying this particular piece as it is crazy to put too much money in it. I just want to know what the failure is.

I checked the Breech Bolt on the CMM at work as compared to a known working one, very minor differences.
 
With a safe weapon, can you hold the trigger back and open the bolt and have it latch back? I can guarantee you that your problem is the timing of the plungers. Obviously it cocks once, then not again. If you study the operation of the mechanism for a while I'm confident you will see the problem. I've been 'smithing since 1966 and when it's no longer challenging I'll quit. Goatwhiskers the Elder
 
LOL Goatwhiskers, I am far from being a gun smith. I just know the guns I own pretty well and have the resources here at the shop being the plant manager to investigate this issue.

We threw the piece up on the flouroscope comparator and operated the bolt with and w/o the trigger pulled. We noticed what seemed to us a bending of the bolt rear by about .030. On a whacked out hunch, we took the bolt to be dye pent inspected and what we found was a hair line crack almost down the middle of the bolt from side to side. We then placed some blade stress weights on the center of the bolt with the ends secured in bearing mounts. It took just 27 pounds of force to completely break the bolt in two. :confused:

Case solved, I put a new (used) bolt in that I had here from a few junked out guns. Went in back and test fired it and it worked as it should. :cool:

I am not sure what broke or cracked the bolt in the first place, but makes sense it started out with just a few burps of full auto and then progressed to full run away full auto after new springs and parts were installed.:rolleyes:

I took pics of the broken bolt and then took it over to the the steel melt room and had one of the furnace ops toss it in the melt. Yes I took the extractors, firing pin and springs out.
 
Well, I suppose I could claim that the bending of the bolt threw the sear latches out of time, but I won't. Just learned something. How long would the average guy have fought with that thing and not figured it out? Goat
 
Hahaha Goatwhiskers, I am very stuborn and hate to have mechanical things beat me. Without the use of the shop equipment, I would have never went as far as I did. I suspect with the CMM time, Dye pent Inspection, Flouroscope inspection if I had to pay outside prices would come to about $500. Lucky for me, all it cost were some new parts that I needed anyways for my SHTF kit and a total of about $50.

* Raises sword and holla's, On to the next project...... Taking orpahned parts from various Savage Model 23a's and making a gun whole again by putting them together and maybe even in a new .17 Mach II caliber rather than the .22lr it was origionally.....The barrel needs relined regardless of .22lr or .17 M2. I posted a thread on this already. Run over to that post and take the poll and add your 2 cents worth to the project.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=398345
 
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