Saiga 12ga.

I saw this clip on another site and the guy was saying he could get as many of these as people wanted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gESLOmz-4sc

He is a dealer and cost would be $605 + tax. They are unconverted (rifle configuration). I never really cared for these but they look like they could be fun. Field loads can be had relatively cheap compared to other ammo right now.

Does anyone here have any first hand experience with them? What is the quality and reliability of them?

Can they be converted easily or legally to the AK config?

Thanks for the help.
 
Yep, they are tons and tons of fun.

If you get the model without the rooski-installed chokes, you can use the big magazines without swapping anything else out for 922r. That model only has 13 "parts" (weird ATF definition) so when you slap in a US-made mag (3 parts), you have the 10 or fewer foreign made parts required by 922r to use big honking mags and whatnot. The mag is it's own "conversion". With the other models, I don't think it's any more trouble to fix up than any other Saiga. It's probably easier if you can get ahold of a drillpress, but it can be done with handtools.

The quality and reliability of mine has been excellent. It eats everything and is lots of fun to blast away with.

That's an ok price, too. I paid a little less than that, but I got mine years ago. Everything costs more now, I think that's about what they are going for.
 
you have the 10 or fewer foreign made parts required by 922r

I've always been a little fuzzy on this issue. Mostly due to the fact that I don't own anything or had interest in owning something that I had to make sure was 922r compliant. Is it that the gun in it's final configuration cannot have more than 10 foreign mfg. parts or when you purchase it has to have fewer than 10 foreign mfg. parts?

Were you saying that in stock trim it has 13 parts and would have to be converted to be 922r compliant?
 
It's confusing, but I eventually figured it out with the help of the folks at saiga12.com and by reading the law over and over until it stuck.

To use mags bigger than 5 rounds, or to have a pistol grip, the gun can't have more than 10 foreign-made parts total. The US mags count for 3 parts. The parts count really matters once you stick a big mag in there or slap on a pistol grip. When you buy it, it will be in a configuration that you can only use 5-round mags in, unless it's the model without the rooski chokes. That model only has 13 parts, so when you slap a big US mag in there it magically converts itself from a foreign-made sporting shotgun to an American-made non-sporting shotgun. Weird, eh?

The models with the rooski chokes have 14 or 15 parts (or more) so if you just slapped a big US mag or pistol-grip on there, you would be in violation of 922r unless you had already swapped out at least one or two parts with US-made components. There is a list somewhere on the saiga12 site that lists what counts as a "part". Not every part is a "part".

Confused yet?:D
 
A little confused still, but at the same time understand much better than I did before. So the only way to tell how many foregin parts their and and how many I would have to replace in order to use higher cap mags is to tear it apart and see what parts are foreign.

Then, once I know how many parts to replace I will have to find US mfg parts to replace them with. Would putting a US made Stock and US made pistol grip on it count?
 
I think it's safe to assume that all the parts are Russian on a stock S12 unless somebody has already worked on it. The main deal would be figuring out how many "parts" your model has. Once you figure that out, it's just a matter of getting some US replacements and installing them.

Then once you get your foreign parts count at 10 or fewer, you can use big magazines and other fun stuff.

I don't know about the pistol grip and stock. Once I figured out that my old-model no-chokes S12 didn't need any replacements to use US mags, I left it the way it was. I like the sporting stock, it makes the shotgun swing pretty nice for a big Russian rectangular block.
 
Thanks B! Very helpful

Thank you as well Sam, I will save the link for future reference.

Again thought, How can I tell that the parts I take out of my gun to inspect are foregin MFG or domestic. Are the US made parts stamped in some way as to indentify them?

Do I need to keep a record of what I replace and what I replaced it with in case the BATFE get interested in my gun for some reason?

Sorry for all the questions. I'm more and a rifle and pistol guy, don't venture into shotguns too much other than my HD Mossy 500.
 
I have one and freaking love it.

Most states (with the exception of my retarded state) allow you to put a pistol grip on it and make it look just like an AK. Except for the enormous shotgun-sized bore.
 
if the gun is in its factory config. its is still legal

i have, for years, been told that the mag you should count as one part due to the fact that if you do get questioned no arguments can arise.

its safest to assume that all of the parts are not us made unless the original owner has paperwork statein otherwise....most of the parts to make it 922r compliant are cheap....

if you do the pistol grip, gas puck, trigger group, and mag that counts as 6 (or 8 if you count the mag as 3) bringing you foreign parts down to 7 (depending on the gun) and makes you legal again.

also if you do convert it i recommend that you put all of your invoices for the parts in an envelope along with finished pictures of the gun, mail it to yourself (so you get a federal date stamp on the envelope) and dont open the envelope....put it somewhere for safe keeping

Parts Count on Saiga Shotguns and Rifles

In this document I will attempt to express my understanding of the current laws and how they apply to the Saiga firearms. If you have questions & concerns or disagree with what I've put together, we can modify. The scope of this is to have a post to link members to if they have parts count questions. I realize there are several posts on this, but most do not specifically apply to both rifles and shotguns. Maybe this can be stickied somewhere handy.

Before doing anything, check with your local and state laws as you may have tighter regulations than what the ATF has laid out for us.

The Saigas have a certain number of parts in their unmodified “Sporting” configuration. They are considered imported because they have more than 10 imported parts in them. As such they are held to 922 ® compliance.

If you want to use high capacity magazines, convert the weapon to pistol grip configuration or use a flash hider, it will then be considered unsporting. You will need to swap out parts so that you have no more than 10 imported parts in it. It will then be considered a US made firearm and 922® does not apply. See bottom of this post for more 922® info and some grey areas.



Parts List

Here’s a quick overview of the parts count determined by the ATF definition letter listed at http://www.soupbowl.kalashnikov.guns.ru/page12.html. For the Saiga rifles, refer to the Galil/AK parts count. The Saiga Shotguns are directly referenced.

A Saiga Rifle in factory configuration has 14 parts.
A Saiga shotgun threaded for chokes has 14 parts.
A Saiga shotgun not threaded for chokes has 13 parts.

(parts on a factory config saiga are in bold)

(1) Receiver
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks, trunnion (rifles only)
(5) Muzzle attachments (shotguns w/ threaded barrels only)
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstock
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates



Examples:

You have a Saiga-12 with factory threaded barrel. (14 parts) You want to convert it to pistol grip configuration. You will need 5 U.S. made parts to make it a U.S. firearm since adding a pistol grip is adding a part from the list.

-or-

You have a Saiga-7.62x39 and want to use high capacity magazines. Since high capacity magazines are considered “unsporting”, and would be in violation of 922®. Your rifle with mag has 14 parts. Use U.S. made mags and one additional U.S. made part like a gas piston and you are good to go.

-or-

You have a Saiga-410 and want to use the factory 10 round magazines. This is believed to be considered high-capacity in a shotgun and be in violation of 922®. You will need to remove imported parts and replace them with U.S. made parts so you have no more than 10 imported ones total.



Grey Areas

Sporting Purposes…
While this was defined in the now-defunct AWB of 1994, the term "Sporting Purposes" is in actuality determined by the opinion of the Secretary of the Treasury. There is no clear ruling on what exactly that means so adding a bayonet lug or flash hider to the firearm may be considered "unsporting" and in violation of 922®.

High Capacity Magazines…
It has been argued what exactly high capacity magazine means. Generally it has been understood that the magazine limit for rifles is 10 rounds and shotguns is 5. Anymore than that and it’s considered “unsuitable for sporting purposes”. Problem is there are no clear definitions stating that exactly.

Flash Hider/Muzzle Brakes/Compensators…
Any type of FH, Brake, Comp or choke are considered muzzle devices. They are included in the parts count. However there has been some disagreement in the past as to whether adding a muzzle brake constitutes making the imported weapon “unsporting”.

Shotgun Chokes…
It’s also arguable whether chokes are considered a part or not and the threading itself is not considered a part, but to be on the safe side I’d consider a choke or thread protector a muzzle device.

Shotgun Pistons…
It’s been the general understanding that the grooved plug in the gas block on the shotguns is considered the piston and the rod on the bolt carrier is either and operating rod or carrier extension. The gas piston on the rifles and other AK’s is the part that is threaded into the bolt carrier.

Parts count difference between the rifles and shotguns…
The main difference between the rifle and shotguns parts counts is the shotguns do not have #(4) Mounting blocks, trunnion. I don’t really understand that part because to be they look to have the same general construction, but that is how the definitions are listed by the ATF themselves.



922 ® in short…

Section 922®, of Title 18, U.S.C. prohibits assembly of certain semiautomatic rifles from imported parts. The implementing regulations in Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) section 178.39(a), provide that no person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph © of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d) (3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.

For further information about 922®, go to the ATF Website or http://uscode.house.gov/ and search for 18 U.S.C. § 922® and 27 CFR § 478.39 of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968.



In Summary

So you made it through all the gibberish above, I hope I have enlightened you a little about the legalities of modifying a Saiga. In short, convert the thing to a U.S. made firearm and do whatever you want to it. Just mind your parts count!

922® isn't such a bad thing, think of all the U.S. business you are helping to support. Also you are turning that ugly little antelope into a much more graceful looking thing of beauty! Remember, a factory configuration Saiga is an example of what the gun control fanatics would like to have all assault weapons look like. Do your job to support the American economy and convert them to U.S. made firearms!
 
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Most US parts are stamped US on the side. Tapco trigger and all other compliance parts are marked very clearly.
 
I have the saiga in 12,20 and 410. Really nice guns and shoot very well. I have only chose to convert my 20 and use the 12 for duck/geese while the 410 picks up the dove,quail, rabbit and other small game. Great guns just a little overpriced at the moment. If you wan to convert a shotgun there is no better platform with sooooooo many accessories available.
 
lol do you use the drum while fowl hunting? (just playing) In the States you guys probably have laws aswell on maxium ammo you can hold in you gun while hunting like we do in Canada.
 
lol do you use the drum while fowl hunting? (just playing) In the States you guys probably have laws aswell on maxium ammo you can hold in you gun while hunting like we do in Canada./QUOTE]

Would be fun to do some dove or quail hunting with a drum and not have to reload. The migratory birds, at least here in AZ, have limits of 3 rounds. While hunting near and around registered waterways we have to use steel shot. My personal opinion is that the steel does not bring the birds down as quickly. The steel was supposed to be better for the birds but I don't see how wounding them is better.
 
I just bought a S12 a few weeks ago. I'll be doing a conversion on it before too long. Somebody posted the link to a Saiga 12 forum, where it covers things in detail.

It's a good shotgun and lots of fun, but there are a few things to keep in mind. First, many magazines need to be fit to the gun. It's as simple as filing down the rear locking tab, but it was a surprise to me that the Russky 5 round mag I bought for it (genuine Izmash) didn't lock in at first. A bit of reading and some work, and now it fits fine. Also, the bore axis on the thing is low compared to the sight plane. It may not make much difference in some situations, but it does make things a little more tricky at the skeet field.
 
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