Safety controversy

Wagonman

New member
Has anyone seen the video from Tactical Response with the cameraman in front of the hot firing line while there was a course of fire being performed?

I was appalled at the unneccesary risk to say nothing of the violation of basic safety rules.

I watched his response and was further troubled, he compares being downrange to driving a car on the highway or riding w/o a motorcyle helmet.
 
While I disagree with the camera mans assesment of what its like being downrange, Tactical response is a company that prides itself in its ability to teach students to shoot in a rapidly changing tactical environment. Unfortunatly the time when you need to discharge a firearm isnt at a paper target x distance away with range safety officers controling your every move. While I'm not advocating every range to be run this way, but it is incredibly valuable shooting experience if you want to truly emerse yourself in a tactical scenario
 
So there will be nobody around when you may have to shoot someone in the real world? :rolleyes:

Real world training for real world incidents. Heck, I've been swept more times on a "safe" 180 range than I've ever been whilst downrange.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqboR6gjOi8&feature=channel_page

Here is the Youtube version. Being down range like that is pretty bad. However, watch the shooters in the video. It will become apparent that several are not all that highly skilled...which makes being down range even more stupid. Those appear to be real, neophytic students.

Seriously, you hear the instructor calling, "Five shots to the little man. Five shots!"

Now, would you want to be a man squatting down between targets, like a little man, and hear that range command?
 
Without disrespecting those who have expressed admiration for the training of Tactical Response, I would have a hard time accepting training or advice from a firm that so blatantly disregards basic firearm safety. After seeing that, my mind would question the validity of anything I was taught there.
 
That is just a terrible, terrible idea. What if the cameraman lost his footing? Or got a cramp? What if a freaking bee landed on him? All possible, and all reasons why it's never a good thing to be on the business end of a gun, no matter how safe you think you are.
 
Safety controversy? There is no controversy! He is a moron! Why not just set the camera up on a tripod and use a remote? The IR remote for my Nikon costs about $12.00

And if this guy really enjoys being shot at that much, he should to go to the front lines in Iraq or Afghanistan! I am sure he (or his widow) would get a lot more money for those pictures than of a bunch of people taking a CCW class!

Scott
 
Doesn't pass the "Washington Post" test...

Certain levels of extremely advanced training can benefit from video footage being recorded of the shooters progressing through the scenario. But not at significant risk to the camera man. Fixed cameras could be used, remote cameras could be used, etc.

It comes down to "what would be the response if the camera man got shot?"

If the photos and story wound up on the front page of the Washington Post, would the average responsible shooter respond "...I can see how that could happen"; or would they say "what a dumbass!"

In this case, it looks like the latter...

(IMHO. YMMV.)
 
Here's what I know.
Had I been taking a class there the camearman would have either been off the line or I would have been going back to the main office for my full refund and then heading home to look up a better school.
 
And if this guy really enjoys being shot at that much, he should to go to the front lines in Iraq or Afghanistan! I am sure he (or his widow) would get a lot more money for those pictures than of a bunch of people taking a CCW class!

There is a big difference here. He isn't being shot AT. He is being shot TOWARD. Nobody is trying to shoot him. They aren't shooting at him. They are shooting BY him or in his general direction. This doesn't make it any less stupid, only that there is no intent to kill him. The difference is one of people driving by you on the highway and trying to commit vehicular homicide.

Personally, I would not stand on the middle white stripes between lanes and video cars going by me either. It isn't the intention to harm me that would worry me, but the inattention and mistakes on behalf of the drivers, or in this case, of the shooters.
 
I think a downrange drill can be done safely.

I also think this video shows a downrange drill being done in a very unsafe manner.

We do live in a 360-degree world, and there might come a time when you need to fire a shot while a loved one is within a few feet of your intended impact point. There is value in stress innoculation, for most people. I'm somewhat ambivalent about whether a defensive shooter "needs" a downrange drill to be truly prepared (and thus whether it's a necessary risk or an unnecessary one), but I have no in-theory quarrel with those who teach it.

However, when a downrange drill is done, it should be done in a very cautious and controlled manner, with multiple safeguards. If you have the philosophy that the stress innoculation is important, then you need to provide it for your students in the safest possible manner. I do not think these guys did that.

Typically, what an instructor is trying to accomplish with a downrange drill is something some call "stress inoculation" and others call "emotional climate training." The goal is to allow the student to experience – in a safe environment – the full weight and magnitude of shooting near (but not at) an innocent human. Most responsible shooters are freaked out by that thought. Yet if & when the student uses a firearm for real in a defensive situation, it is entirely likely that someone they love and care about will be within feet (and possibly within mere inches) of the muzzle at the time they fire. If they are freaking out about the mere thought of firing near an innocent, they won't be able to make that shot when they need it, so the reasoning for the downrange drill is that if the student has already experienced and gotten over the extreme emotional "freak out" associated with needing to make a shot near but not at an innocent, they will be that much steadier under stress and that much more prepared to make that shot when it counts.

At the same time, those instructors who send students downrange during such drills (rather than going downrange themselves while students shoot) are typically trying to accomplish a similar stress inoculation goal: they want their students to experience, in a safe and controlled environment, what gunfire looks like from the front. Again, it is fully expected that any reasonable person will be disconcerted by both the idea and the actuality of having a gun fired in their general direction, even if it is not being fired at them. The reasoning here is that those who have experienced the emotional impact of such a situation but in a safe environment will be more prepared and better able to keep their cool under pressure if & when it happens in real life, and that they may recognize that they are being shot at somewhat sooner than someone who has never seen or experienced gunfire from the muzzle end. The goal has far less to do with anything macho than it does with simply getting over and past the extreme emotional reaction in training so that the student will be able to respond calmly and efficiently in real life.

By this point, whether you agree with the arguments or not, it should be clear why these goals cannot be accomplished with anything but live ammunition on a hot range.

Again, to be clear: I'm not saying these drills must be done and I'm sure not urging anyone to get out this weekend and run downrange! I'm just trying to articulate what instructors who do this type of drill are intending to accomplish when they do them.

Kathy
 
No disagreement regarding either the utility or intentions of such drills.

My response is limited to an observation that, in this particular circumstance, fundamentals of safety appeared to be absent; and that typically such drills are run with extremely advanced shooters. Which also does not appear to be the case in this specific instance.
 
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I think a downrange drill can be done safely.

I also think this video shows a downrange drill being done in a very unsafe manner ...

Typically, what an instructor is trying to accomplish with a downrange drill is something some call "stress inoculation" and others call "emotional climate training."

That is not a downrange drill. This video shows a photographer apparently trying to capture a "true action" photo. This is a photographer who is very stupid.
 
"True safety doesn't exist!" ...

Gimme a break. These guys need a refresher course in ORM. I imagine that had something gone terribly wrong, it would become company policy to never do that kind of stunt again ... if they could find an insurance company that would underwrite them again that is.
 
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