safety concern

R

Rifleman1776

New member
A house burned down in our town this week and the circumstances were unusual. And, the advice afterwards by the fire Chief were, in my opinion, even more unusual and again, in my opinion, incorrect and dangerous.
The fire occured in the shop of a man who was working on a rifle trigger with a Dremel tool. The part got too hot to hold so he went in the house for lunch and let the part cool. While he was eating his garage/shop caught fire, reportedly from the hot trigger assembly and burned his house.
A fireman got hit with a bullet from an exploding round of reloaded ammunition. The supply of reloading powder also burned up. No report the powder exploded.
Now, the Chief said the powder and ammo should have been in a gun safe.
I disagree and contend that confined powder would be more likely to explode than go 'foof' and go up in flame.
In my house I store, not only modern reloading powder, but quite a bit of genuine black powder. I know, confined the bp will explode. Ignited in an unconfined environment it will simply flare off. I doubt the tin it comes in would contain it enough for an explosion.
What say y'all? Is powder best left unconfined or kept in a safe?
BTW, my personal gun safe does not have fire resistant insulation.
 
In regards to the "getting hit with a bullet" comment

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/07/daniel-zimmerman/ammo-cooking-off-in-a-fire-not-so-much/



Powder in a firesafe?
I am no expert but that seems like making a home made hand grenade to me. Even a fireproof one, if it gets hot enough I am sure the scale of the destruction would depend on how strong the safe is and how much powder is inside. I wouldn't want to personally be close enough to find out first hand what happens to a gunsafe when exposed to fire with powder inside.
 
No-brainer.

From a safety (not security) aspect, powder should be left in a position of "free burn"/close to a blow-out wall.
Combining safety and security would be a locked wooden box/trunk with blow-out spaces between the slats.
(Better yet would be a box made out of spaced metal slats/mesh -- aka: a bomb cage.)

The Fire Chief has spoken outside his swimlanes -- but not surprisingly so given the circumstances.
 
Last edited:
I, personally, only have 1 pound of powder at the moment - the only thing containing it is the bottle.

I do recall and older edition of ABCs of Reloading that recommends storing larger amounts in something like an old fridge.

Personally, should a fire start I will be collecting my guns before evacuating - I suppose I could chuck the powder bottle out the window.

A fireman got hit with a bullet from an exploding round of reloaded ammunition.
Click to expand...
Wonder how that happened...they don't usually have much force behind them without a barrel to travel down:confused:
 
I think there are too many factors to say one way or another, without knowing how much powder, or what kind/size of safe. I think the interior could get hot enough to cause ignition. However then the factors of how large and well sealed the safe is come into play as to how fast the pressure increases in the safe and what the final pressure would be. This would determine if there was a failure in the safe and whether it was catastrophic(safe bomb) or just a failure of the seals. Whether in a safe or not in a safe, the first moments of a container of powder igniting would be similar, it would take some of the powder burning off before the pressure inside the safe was considerably higher than normal outside pressure.

That being said, I would put stuff like that into a flammables cabinet if I were concerned with it being a major factor in a house fire. I would not store it in a safe, because there would be an ok amount and a not ok amount, and I have no idea what that threshold is. Not to mention I would not want to open a pressurized safe and have a safe door smack me in the face.
 
This has been discussed numerous times before. A round that "cooks off" is only hazardous to firefighters if it's chambered in a firearm.

A round that's uncontained will merely "pop" apart when the powder ignites, and when this happens, the primer and case are much lighter than the bullet and will go flying with correspondingly higher velocity. However, the ballistics of a tumbling primer and/or ruptured case are so poor that these objects are only a hazard within a few feet of the exploding round, and a firefighter's normal face shield and protective clothing are more than adequate to stop the flying pieces.

Numerous common household products packaged in aerosol cans are FAR more dangerous than loose ammo in a fire.

The Chief needs to read the 2006 International Fire Code. It specifies that loose powder and primers should be stored in wooden cabinets, NOT metal containers. Wood is strong enough to contain lightweight flying debris like primers and cases (see above) but it's NOT strong enough to contain sufficient gas pressure to create a dangerous explosion.
 
What has been written above is generally correct. But I must relate an experience I had. I had primed some brass and cumpled the neck so the case was unusable. I didn't want to run the primed case through the trash so I put into the fireplace. When the primer went off, if penetrated my leg with a perfectly round hole from about 5 feet away. Fortunately it hit no blood vessels or bone. But it did penetrate about 5 inches of flesh and lodged just under the skin on the other side of the leg.

So cooked off primers are not harmless. They are not as dangerous as bullets, but far from harmless.
 
I think I would rather have the powder unconfined. In a safe is like building a bomb.

I have been told that black powder WILL explode unconfined. I do not use it so it is not a concern for me, but that stuff can be pretty dangerous. I would be very cafreful with it.
 
As others have probably pointed out;

While I would not want to stand next to it, a bullet cannot shoot in the normal sense of the term outside a device that is not channeling where all that power is going to direct it.

ie; a barrel/chamber

If someone turns on a hose with no attachment in your face, yea you get a splatter of water. If they do the same thing, but have an attachment that forces all the water through a much smaller specific path an instant shot of water could literally put your eye out.

Another way to think of it are machines that use water to cut metal.
 
SAAMI says:


CONSIDERATIONS FOR STORAGE OF SMOKE-
LESS POWDER
Smokeless powder is intended to function by burning, so it must be protected against accidental exposure to flame, sparks or high temperatures. For these reasons, storage enclosures should be made of insulating materials to protect the powder from external heat sources. Once smokeless powder begins to burn, it will continue to burn (and generate gas pressure) until it is consumed. DOT-approved containers are constructed to open up at low internal pressures to avoid the effects normally produced by the rupture or
bursting of strong containers. Storage enclosures for smokeless powder should be constructed in a similar manner:
1. Of fire-resistant and heat-insulating materials to protect contents
from external heat.
2. Sufficiently loose to vent the gaseous products of combustion satisfactorily which would result if the quantity of smokeless powder within the enclosure accidentally ignited. If a small, tightly enclosed storage enclosure is loaded to capacity with containers of smokeless powder, the walls of the enclosure will expand or move outwards to release the gas pressure — if the smokeless powder in storage is accidentally ignited. Under such conditions, the effects of the release of gas pressure are similar or identical to the effects produced by an explosion. Therefore, storage of smokeless powder should be in strict compliance with all applicable regulations and recommendations of the
National Fire Protection Association.Recommendations For Storage Of Smokeless Powder
STORE IN A COOL, DRY PLACE. Be sure the storage area selected is free from any possible sources of excess heat and is isolated from open flame, furnaces, hot water heaters, etc. Do not store smokeless powder where it will be exposed to the sun's rays. Avoid storage in areas where mechanical or electrical equipment is in operation. Restrict from the storage areas heat or sparks which may result from improper, defective or overloaded electrical circuits.

Recommendations For Storage Of Smokeless Powder
DO NOT STORE SMOKELESS POWDER IN THE SAME AREA WITH SOLVENTS, FLAMMABLE GASES OR HIGHLY COMBUSTIBLE MATERIALS.
STORE ONLY IN DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION APPROVED CONTAINERS.
Do not transfer the powder from an approved container into one which is not approved.
DO NOT SMOKE IN AREAS WHERE POWDER IS STORED OR USED. Place appropriate "No Smoking" signs in these areas.
DO NOT SUBJECT THE STORAGE CABINETS TO CLOSE CONFINEMENT. STORAGE CABINETS SHOULD BE CONSTRUCTED OF INSULATING MATERIALS AND WITH A WEAK WALL SEAMS OR JOINTS TO PROVIDE AN EASY MEANS OF SELF-VENTING.
DO NOT KEEP OLD OR SALVAGED POWDERS. Check old powders for deterioration regularly. Destroy deteriorated powders immediately.
OBEY ALL REGULATIONS REGARDING QUANTITY AND METHODS OF STORING. Do not store all your powders in one place. If you can, maintain separate storage locations. Many small containers are safer than one or more large containers.
KEEP YOUR STORAGE AND USE AREA CLEAN. Clean up spilled powder promptly. Make sure the surrounding area is free of trash or other readily combustible materials

and the National Fire Protection Association says:

13-3 SMOKELESS PROPELLANTS

13-3.1 Quantities of smokeless propellants not exceeding 25 lb (11.3 kg), in shipping containers approved by the U.S. Department of Transportation, shall be permitted to be transported in a private vehicle.

13-3.2 Quantities of smokeless propellants exceeding 25 lb (11.3 kg) but not exceeding 50 lb (22.7 kg), transported in a private vehicle, shall be transported in a portable magazine having wood walls of at least 1 in. (25.4 mm) nominal thickness.

13-3.3 Transportation of more than 50 lb (22.7 kg) of smokeless propellants in a private vehicle shall be prohibited.

13-3.4 Commercial shipments of smokeless powder for small arms which has been classed in Division 1.3 shall be permitted to be reclassed as Division 4.1 Flammable Solid for transportation purposes for shipment by motor vehicle, rail car, vessel, or cargo-only aircraft, subject to the conditions stated in the U.S. Department of Transportation "Hazardous Materials Regulations," 49 CFR 173.171.

13-3.5 Commercial shipments of smokeless propellants exceeding 100 lb (45.4 kg) or not packaged in accordance with the regulations cited in 13-3.4 shall be transported in accordance with the U.S. Department of Transportation regulations for Class B propellant explosives.

13-3.6 Smokeless propellants shall be stored in shipping containers specified by U.S. Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials Regulations.

13-3.7 Smokeless propellants intended for personal use in quantities not exceeding 20 lb (9.1 kg) shall be permitted to be stored in original containers in residences. Quantities exceeding 20 lb (9.1 kg), but not exceeding 50 lb (22.7 kg), shall be permitted to be stored in residences where kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least 1 in. (25.4 mm) nominal thickness.

13-3.8 Not more than 50 lb (22.7 kg) of smokeless propellants, in containers of 1 lb (0.45 kg) maximum capacity, shall be displayed in commercial establishments.

13-3.9 Commercial stocks of smokeless propellants shall be stored as follows:

(1) Quantities exceeding 50 lb (22.7 kg), but not exceeding 100 lb (45.4 kg), shall be stored in portable wooden boxes having walls of at least 1 in. (25.4 mm) thickness.

(2) Quantities exceeding 100 lb (45.4 kg), but not exceeding 800 lb (363 kg), shall be stored in nonportable storage cabinets having walls of at least 1 in (25.4 mm) thickness. Not more than 400 lb (181 kg) shall be permitted to be stored in any one cabinet, and cabinets shall be separated by a distance of at least 25 ft (7.63 m) or by a fire partition having a fire resistance of at least 1 hour.

(3) Quantities exceeding 800 lb (363 kg), but not exceeding 5,000 lb (2268 kg), shall be permitted to be stored in a building, provided the following requirements are met:

(a). The warehouse or storage room shall not be accessible to unauthorized personnel.

(b). Smokeless propellant shall be stored in nonportable storage cabinets having wood walls at least 1 in. (25.4 mm) thickness and having shelves with no more than 3 ft. (0.92 m) of separation between shelves.

(c). No more than 400 lb. (181 kg) shall be stored in any one cabinet..

(d). Cabinets shall be located against the walls of the storage room or warehouse with at least 40 ft (12.2 m) between cabinets.

(e). The separation between cabinets shall be permitted to be reduced to 20 ft (6.1 m) where barricades twice the height of the cabinets are attached to the wall, midway between each cabinet. The barricades shall extend at least 10 ft. (3 m) outward, shall be firmly attached to the wall, and shall be constructed of 1/4 in. (6.4 mm) boiler plate, 2 in. (51 mm) thick wood, brick, or concrete block.

(f). Smokeless propellant shall be separated from materials classified by the U.S. Department of Transportation as flammable liquids, flammable solids, and oxidizing materials by a distance of 25 ft. (7.63 m) or by a fire partition having a fire resistance of at least 1 hour.

(g). The building shall be protected by an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with NFPA 13, Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems.

(4) Smokeless propellants not stored in accordance with 13.3.9 (1), (2), and (3) shall be stored in a Type 4 magazine constructed and located in accordance with Chapter 8.
 
With 20 years as a Safety Professional who specialty was in the manufacture of ammunition explosive and propellants, i could probably considered an expert.

Under no circumstance should propellants and ammunition be stored (outside of an explosive storage facility) in an unvented metal container.

The fire chief is either unqualified for his position or a fool. It has been a while and I no longer have access to the National Fire Code (NFPA) or the Southwest Fire Chiefs Fire Code. If memory serves, storage in an unvented metal container is a violation of the code.

Having witnessed and investigated many fires over the years. 40 to 100 pounds of smokeless powder in a house fire would not even be notices.

Frankly, a 20 pound LP container is a significantly greater hazard to fire fighters than any amount of small arms ammo/propellant up to about 1000 pounds Net explosive Weight.
 
Wonder how many people have these spam cans of soviet surplus ammo stuck back in their ammo storage areas. Or have used surplus military metal ammo cans for ammo storage?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top