Sabots in a Handgun?

[Picher]

Reading about and experiencing the lack of stopping power in handgun rounds, I was wondering if anyone had tried using sabots to drive rifle-type 6mm bullets to over 2,000 fps out of .44 Mag or .41 Mag cases in revolvers.

An 80 or 90 grain 6mm projectile built like a Nosler partition or solid base and travelling around 2,200 fps should be devistating compared with slower bullets due to the shock caused by the rapid expansion and relatively deep penetration. The idea came from Remington's "Accelerator" rounds that shoot 55 grain .224 bullets out of a .30-06 at over 4,000 fps. The recoil was considerably less than standard 150-180 grain bullets.

This theory flys in the face of the "bigger and heavier is better" theory, but seeing the "explosive" results of fast expanding rounds on game makes me wonder why something like that wouldn't kill BGs quicker than bullets that just punch holes.

One concern would be locking the bullets and sabots into the cases so they don't pull out from recoil, but the bullets could have cannelures or notches in them and the sabots could be crimped in heavily.

Six millimeter rounds in .243 Win and 6mm Rem make effective deer rounds using the more heavily constructed 100 grain bullets, but 80 or 90 grain bullets could be constructed to open up at 2,000 fps and be quite effective, IMHO.

Okay folks, time to "blow holes" in my theory. Just remember, you heard it here first. Darn, forgot to patent the idea.

Picher

 

[Handy]

An 80 or 90 grain 6mm projectile built like a Nosler partition or solid base and travelling around 2,200 fps should be devistating

I think the FN FiveSeven is pretty close to this, but far from devastating.

I think you really need to be getting close to 3000 fps before you could expect light rounds to really do something rifle like.

 

[Dfariswheel]

Problems are:
Feed problems in automatics.
The sabot would also have to be designed so as to not be pushed back into the case when it hits the feed ramp.

Modern defense ammo is designed to withstand at least several feed cycles before being pushed back to an extent where the round fails to feed, or becomes dangerous to fire.

Next, failures to extract and eject. The light round would likely not develop enough energy to reliably operate the action.

Rounds shedding the sabot in revolvers.
The round has to "jump" the barrel-cylinder gap and the forcing cone.
There is a possibility that the gap could allow the sabot to start opening, and "shed" the bullet.
The bullet could continue on out the barrel, leaving the sabot behind for the next round to hit.

Case capacity and pistol strength limit just how fast you can drive a projectile, and it's unlikely you could develop the kind of velocity to make the whole thing worth while.

 

[Picher]

Dfariswheel: The idea was NOT for semi-auto handguns, only revolvers. They wouldn't feed or operate actions. Sabots should not be shed in forcing cones or barrels. It may be difficult to generate necessary pressure in a short barrel to achieve optimum velocity, however.

They would be dangerous in lever-action magazines and that may be why we may never see them.

Picher

 

[Hammerhead]

The sabots don't have any physical problem getting through a revolver safetly. The problems are delivering the twist of the barrel to the bullet and poor accuracy that was probably caused by the sabots softness alowing misalignment to occur.
Dean Grennell (sp?) experimented quite a bit with sabots in .44 rem. mag. using .357 and .22 caliber bullets. IIRC, he had some success with .357 but accuracy was never really there, and the .22's never became stabilized in flight.
He concluded that necked down widcats like the .357/.44 Bain & Davis and the .357 maximum necked to .22 were much more accurate and practical. Of course this requires a new gun or barrel.
How about a Glock 20/10mm converted to 9x25 Dillon (10mm case necked to .355) pushing 115 grain bullets to about 1,800 f.p.s.? This is a new cartridge that just requires a barrel swap. Barrels, brass and ammo is available from Doubletap and Dillon I believe.
The Glock 20 is a great platform for that kind of thing. 15+1 of 9x25 Dillon is a good thing as Martha might say.
http://www.doubletapammo.com/

 

[Picher]

Hammerhead:

Guess that's why the .357 Mag, 125 grain HPs have such a high one-shot kill record. They go out around 1,800 fps.

The .357 Sig has proven quite popular among some Maine Game Wardens because it dispatches animals quicker than any other semi-auto round. If I had to use a semi-auto, I'd think about that...a lot!

Picher

 

[Hammerhead]

HAVE to use an auto?
Die hard wheelgunner eh?
Someday do youself a favor and try a Glock 20/10mm. It's the only auto that really satisfies the need for power and accuracy.
Stay Warm.

 

[Picher]

Hammerhead:

Yep, love centerfire wheelguns. I have two nice .357s and don't shoot them much, but enjoy doing so more than any semi-auto I've fired. I also handload and really hate chasing shells. That's one of the reasons I got rid of a very nicely-accurized 1911. Though I've never shot a Glock, I have shot other autos and liked the Browning Hi-Power, a Beretta, a Ruger, and a CZ.

If I needed to carry, I'd probably feel different about autos. It's really pretty safe here and it's more dangerous to have a loaded weapon around than not. Too many friends have had accidental discharges causing property and animal damage; mostly TV sets, one expensive sleeper couch, a window screen, a picture of Abe Lincoln, and unfortunately, a neighbor's dog.

My .22LR pistol is a semi-auto and I've had several of those over the years. They're generally more accurate and easier to load than .22LR revolvers, especially single-action revolvers. At my age, I appreciate a red-dot sight and shoot targets very well with it.

And oh yes, I am staying warm, despite the subzero temperature and 30 mph winds howling around today. Hope you're warm and dry.

John

 

[Hammerhead]

I just HAD to get to the range today.
Sixty hour work week and two weeks indoors.
Took the Big Glock and my Freedom Arms '97 .357 along too. 18" of fresh snow and brilliant sunshine at 25 degrees. A great day to spend a couple of hours at the range.
Go Pats!
John