Bucksnort1
New member
Will someone please explain the advantage of sabot bullets.
Sabot
- Thread starter Bucksnort1
- Start date
It allows a smaller than bore sized bullet to be fired. For example, shooting a .224 diameter bullet in a .30 caliber bore.
"Sabot" is French for shoe.
The sabot/bullet combo has a low sectional density and that allows high velocities to be developed without extreme chamber pressures.
Once it leaves the barrel, the sabot drops off and the small diameter bullet now has a high ballistic coefficient for good ballistics downrange.
More practically, it allows a .30-06 to double as a .22 caliber varmint rifle or a .50 caliber muzzle loader to shoot .357 or .429 pistol bullets.
The one piece shotgun wad is kind of a sabot.
"Sabot" is French for shoe.
The sabot/bullet combo has a low sectional density and that allows high velocities to be developed without extreme chamber pressures.
Once it leaves the barrel, the sabot drops off and the small diameter bullet now has a high ballistic coefficient for good ballistics downrange.
More practically, it allows a .30-06 to double as a .22 caliber varmint rifle or a .50 caliber muzzle loader to shoot .357 or .429 pistol bullets.
The one piece shotgun wad is kind of a sabot.
Gives much higher velocities to a smaller bullet. And Remington pretended it'd let you use your deer rifle for varmints. You can do that anyway(the result of hitting a ground hog with a .30-06 220 Silvertip is astounding.), local laws allowing. However, as mentioned, the accuracy is virtually non-existent and it proved to be another answer to an unasked question.
Out of a muzzle loader it's far better. Uses a pistol bullet.
Out of a muzzle loader it's far better. Uses a pistol bullet.
reynolds357
New member
I think Sabots are good for field artillery and not really good for anything else. In muzzleloaders that can stand heavy charges, a modern variant of the Minie Ball will shoot further, more accurately, and hit harder than sabot rounds.
When Remington was producing their "Accelerator" sabot rounds, I played with them in .30-'06 and to a lesser extent in .30-30. Accuracy was not that bad. A Model 700 that was capable of sub-MOA groups with good .30 caliber ammo shot about 3" with the saboted .22 bullets. The .30-30 Accelerators shot about 5" our of an iron sighted 94 Winchester, not a lot worse than the normal 4" .30 factory load.
The groups were not all that bad, and I could see the advantage of having that flexibility. But, the problem was that neither gun shot to the same place with the Accelerators as with the normal loads. With the Model 700, for example, I would have had to make a big (8" up, 5" right) adjustment to the scope to bring the .22 group to POA at 100 yards. And of course, reverse that when I changed back, presumably after varmint time turned into deer season.
IMHO, any supposed advantage was outweighed by that disadvantage. Others might disagree, and Remington did deserve some praise for innovation.
Jim
The groups were not all that bad, and I could see the advantage of having that flexibility. But, the problem was that neither gun shot to the same place with the Accelerators as with the normal loads. With the Model 700, for example, I would have had to make a big (8" up, 5" right) adjustment to the scope to bring the .22 group to POA at 100 yards. And of course, reverse that when I changed back, presumably after varmint time turned into deer season.
IMHO, any supposed advantage was outweighed by that disadvantage. Others might disagree, and Remington did deserve some praise for innovation.
Jim
But if the sabots can be accurate from muzzle loaders, shotguns, and tank rounds, why not in centerfire rifles?
Two things going on here.
First, generally speaking, shotguns and muzzle loaders are "short range" firearms. Accuracy for them is less an issue than increased velocity--not saying those platforms aren't quite accurate, just not sub MOA at extended range.
Second, tank guns (that use sabots) were built around the projectile not the other way around.
Using sabot bullets in typical centerfire rifles violates several accepted ideas of how to produce accurate ammo. Rifling is designed to work with a range of bullet weights/lengths both of which the sabot violates. Powders must be very fast with sabot loads which also violates the barrel's design factors. The residue left in the bore creates a whole different set of considerations. I've tried .224 bullets in sabots for .308 barrels and it's a totally frustrating process. There MAY be a "sweet spot" after the bore gets coated with plastic but it may take 20-30 shots to get there and it may only last 10-20 shots and then you start over. Worthless for actual hunting.
Two things going on here.
First, generally speaking, shotguns and muzzle loaders are "short range" firearms. Accuracy for them is less an issue than increased velocity--not saying those platforms aren't quite accurate, just not sub MOA at extended range.
Second, tank guns (that use sabots) were built around the projectile not the other way around.
Using sabot bullets in typical centerfire rifles violates several accepted ideas of how to produce accurate ammo. Rifling is designed to work with a range of bullet weights/lengths both of which the sabot violates. Powders must be very fast with sabot loads which also violates the barrel's design factors. The residue left in the bore creates a whole different set of considerations. I've tried .224 bullets in sabots for .308 barrels and it's a totally frustrating process. There MAY be a "sweet spot" after the bore gets coated with plastic but it may take 20-30 shots to get there and it may only last 10-20 shots and then you start over. Worthless for actual hunting.
Tank rounds using discarding sabot petals are fin stabilized through smoothbore tubes. Shotgun rounds using discarding sabot petals are usually much lower velocity affairs than rifle bullets, and the slug massively outweighs the sabot (as compared to a 30cal to 22 bullet sabot). And those rifled shotgun barrels are producing accuracy that makes shotgunners happy, but would make benchresters cry. There is a reason benchrest shotgun isn't a sport.
Rifles impart spin stabilization onto rifle bullets. Using a sabot shouldn't affect this in theory, but in practice if you don't get the bullet perfectly centered in the bore, accuracy is compromised.
For what it is worth, paper patching does the same thing for rifle bullets, separating the projectile from the barrel, but without the decrease in accuracy or increase in velocity over standard projectiles.
Now they are fun things to play with, but they are an idea that has never really hit the big time because accuracy just isn't there, and handloaders generally have the ability to get the performance they want without resorting to sabots.
Hope this is useful.
Jimro
Rifles impart spin stabilization onto rifle bullets. Using a sabot shouldn't affect this in theory, but in practice if you don't get the bullet perfectly centered in the bore, accuracy is compromised.
For what it is worth, paper patching does the same thing for rifle bullets, separating the projectile from the barrel, but without the decrease in accuracy or increase in velocity over standard projectiles.
Now they are fun things to play with, but they are an idea that has never really hit the big time because accuracy just isn't there, and handloaders generally have the ability to get the performance they want without resorting to sabots.
Hope this is useful.
Jimro
globemaster3
New member
Hey jimro, take a look at this:
http://www.slugshooting.com
Not true Benchrest rifles, but a slug shooting competitive community shooting from the bench.
http://www.slugshooting.com
Not true Benchrest rifles, but a slug shooting competitive community shooting from the bench.
Bucksnort1
New member
A few years ago, the ammunition fairy left a box of 30-06 sabot rounds under my pillow, which means, I can't remember where I got them. It was a .22 caliber bullet with the sabot around it. I never shot them because I was told there would be some serious, hard-to-remove plastic left in the barrel. Any thoughts.
I LOVE BIG OIL.
I LOVE BIG OIL.
Bucksnort1
New member
Ok, I understand about versatility but if I can push a sabot, with a .22 caliber bullet, at 2,800 fps from a 30-06, why not just use a rifle that will shoot .223 caliber bullets, without the sabot, at higher velocities. I'm not sure I understand some of the responses about getting more velocity from a sabot round.
Bucksnort1
New member
Doyle,
Ah ha, finally, the explanation I have been seeking. Thanks.
I LOVE BIG OIL. Saw this statement on a bumper sticker. It's one of the two most politically incorrect statements I've ever seen (I love political incorrectness). The other was, years ago while on my way to an elk hunt in western Colorado, a large sign placed on the back of a hunter's trailer. It read, "Another load of fresh Bambi burgers on the way".
Ah ha, finally, the explanation I have been seeking. Thanks.
I LOVE BIG OIL. Saw this statement on a bumper sticker. It's one of the two most politically incorrect statements I've ever seen (I love political incorrectness). The other was, years ago while on my way to an elk hunt in western Colorado, a large sign placed on the back of a hunter's trailer. It read, "Another load of fresh Bambi burgers on the way".
As was stated previously, with the smaller diameter bullet, also much lighter weight (55gr as opposed to 150gr) you get a much higher velocity.
With this much higher velocity, you get a different point of impact from using 150-165 grain bullets.
My old 30-06 shot the Accelerators about 6" above point of impact compared to the 165gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips.
With this much higher velocity, you get a different point of impact from using 150-165 grain bullets.
My old 30-06 shot the Accelerators about 6" above point of impact compared to the 165gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips.
At what yardage? I can certainly see such a result at long range because of the higher velocities.
However, at shorter ranges, light bullets often have a point of impact lower than heavy bullets because there is less gun movement during the time the bullet is in the barrel. With my Ruger Super Blackhawk revolver, going from 240 grain bullets to 180 grain bullets required nearly 1-1/2 turn of the rear sight adjustment to compensate for this. The 180 grain bullets shooting lower than the 240 grain bullets.
With double rifles, the bore lines converge to compensate for the up and sideways recoil of the gun during firing. If you shoot a bullet that is lighter than the bullet the gun was regulated for, the barrels will cross shoot.