SAA Clones: Why higher 45 ACP pressures but...

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LivewireBlanco

New member
...not safe to load 45 Colt over 14,000 psi? I have a Uberti SAA and it has both a 45 Colt cylinder and 45 ACP cylinder. If 45 ACP is rated at 21,000 why can't I load 45 Colt up to 21,000 and it be safe to shoot? I've tried to find a simple answer but I haven't found one yet.
 
If you want a -SIMPLE- answer (and yes, one with the truth behind it) it's quite simply that it's a huge world of liability for the manufacturer to ever go that route, with almost ZERO payoff for them.

You must understand that .45 ACP is built to a SAAMI standard pressure and all the ammo on the market is also built to that standard, so it's very much a known quantity that end-users will be feeding the revolver.

.45 Colt is also built to a SAAMI standardized pressure, only ONE standardized pressure... the very light one. This is a very old cartridge with black powder roots. Understand that there is nothing whatsoever similar between the .45 Colt poppers tossing a 250-grain lead round nose slug at 750 fps... and the performance hunting rounds crafted in .45 Colt brass for modern platforms such as the Freedom and Ruger revolvers. There exists no industry standard for these modern, FAR higher pressure rounds and trying to build a period-correct revolver that replicates handguns from the 1800's but actually telling end-users that they can run nuclear ammo in them is a ludicrous idea from a manufacturer's standpoint.

Now, if you want a real-world answer that might give you some ideas...

It's likely going to be perfectly safe for you to handload .45 Colt ammo to higher-than-SAAMI spec pressures to run in these revolvers. Run them in a load that replicates .45 Auto pressures and you'd be fine.

Running loads that replicate Freedom Arms or Ruger revolver and you'll destroy the gun and hurt anyone nearby.
 
I'll let you in on a secret most everybody knows you can, just nobody will tell you.
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+1 . Agree completely ... However, manufacturers need to adhere to standards to not be overrun by lawyers.... If you added an 1/4" of steel around the chambers and set it up for .45 Colt loads... It would still be 14K (manufacture can stand behind that) even though 'obviously' it could handle a lot more..... Not a bad thing really to have standards to close legal loopholes. Just the .45 Colt is 'stuck' with 14K and that isn't going to change anytime soon.
 
Ok, I pretty much figured most of this but I was seeing if there was something out there that I was missing. Most of what I read was that original Colt SAA revolvers and older clones would be made with inferior steel than today's steel. Today's steel is stronger and could take higher pressures but not Ruger only loads, those are for Rugers only.
 
Most of what I read was that original Colt SAA revolvers and older clones would be made with inferior steel than today's steel. Today's steel is stronger and could take higher pressures but not Ruger only loads, those are for Rugers only.
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Howdy

Be careful when you say inferior. The very first Colt SAA revolvers had iron frames and cylinders, not steel. Malleable Iron, not to be confused with much more brittle cast iron. That is one reason the Walker Colt was prone to blowing up, the iron cylinder could not take the pressure generated by the massive powder charge. S&W too was using iron, not steel, for their earliest revolvers, as did many other mid 19th Century firearms manufacturers. Colt started using steel for the frames and cylinders of the SAA about 1883. Then there was a steady progression of better and better steels.

Those early steels and malleable iron were not inferior, they were the best available at the time.
 
everything ive seen says that the colt made saa's were redesigned for 45 colt loaded to 45acp PRESSURE once the 357 magnum was introduced. Also see it stated that non cowboy ammo is loaded to 45acp pressure, ie your silvertips...
 
This is a very old cartridge with black powder roots. Understand that there is nothing whatsoever similar between the .45 Colt poppers tossing a 250-grain lead round nose slug at 750 fps...
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It is my understanding that the original black powder load for the .45 Colt, in an SAA was a 250 grain slug going 950 FPS. Am I missing something?
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_colt

Colt began work on their 1873 Single Action Army Model in 1871. Sample cartridges submitted for Army tests were made by UMC, using the Benet cup primers; commercial ammunition used the Berdan-type primer, followed by the more common Boxer priming. Original UMC loads used a 40-grain (2.6 g) powder charge and 250-grain (16 g) bullet. This was reduced to 35-grain (2.3 g) of powder, and later, by the Army, to 28-grain (1.8 g).
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Not sure about the accuracy of the data, but if someone wants to give those loads a try we could make a better guess.

I've read different speeds for the first .45 colt. From around 850fps to 950fps. That's out of the 7 1/2" barrel.

Given a gun that can handle the pressure the problem with shooting high pressure .45 colt is with the brass. It has a tendency to split and stretch too much.
 
Given a gun that can handle the pressure the problem with shooting high pressure .45 colt is with the brass. It has a tendency to split and stretch too much.
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Myth. The .45 Colt brass is as strong as the .44Mag brass. No different. No such thing as weak .45 Colt brass other than the old balloon head brass (way back) which isn't made anymore.
 
Not sure about the accuracy of the data, but if someone wants to give those loads a try we could make a better guess.

I've read different speeds for the first .45 colt. From around 850fps to 950fps. That's out of the 7 1/2" barrel.
Given a gun that can handle the pressure the problem with shooting high pressure .45 colt is with the brass. It has a tendency to split and stretch too much.
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Don't confuse velocity with pressure.

Yes, the original black powder loadings could get well over 900 fps with a 250 gr bullet, HOWEVER Black Powder has a VERY different pressure curve than smokeless.

Putting a smokeless loaded round that does 950fps in an early black powder era SAA isn't going to turn out well.

Smokeless and Black Powder really are apples and oranges.
 
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I have a Uberti SAA and it has both a 45 Colt cylinder and 45 ACP cylinder. If 45 ACP is rated at 21,000 why can't I load 45 Colt up to 21,000 and it be safe to shoot?
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Could it be due to the fact that two different cylinders are involved here?
 
Ok, I pretty much figured most of this but I was seeing if there was something out there that I was missing. Most of what I read was that original Colt SAA revolvers and older clones would be made with inferior steel than today's steel. Today's steel is stronger and could take higher pressures but not Ruger only loads, those are for Rugers only.
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It's not inferior steel.

Colt made the gun to handle the pressures of the .357 magnum, so, it isn't a problem with the steel.

Where there is a problem with the Colt design when you push it too far is the location of the bolt stops.

In the .45 Colt, they fall directly over a chamber.

W/the smaller diameter .44 spl case, the bolt stops are just slightly off to the sides of the chambers.

Elmer Keith quit using the Colt SAA in .45 in favor of .44spl for this very reason.
One of his attempts to "hot rod" the .45 ended up blowing up in his face.

BTW - here's a good example of the bolt stop location over a cylinder and how it leaves very little "meat".
The guns involved aren't .45 and they aren't Colts - but - it's an excellent close up that illustrates the issue.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=541556&highlight=bolt
 
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W/the smaller diameter .44 spl case, the bolt stops are just slightly off to the sides of the chambers.
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The bolt stops are in the exact same place on a Colt cylinder, no matter what the caliber is. But a smaller diameter chamber will leave more metal between the bottom of the bolt stops and the chamber.

And yes, ever since the 1930s when the 357 Magnum was introduced, Colt has been using the same high tensile strength steel for their 45 Colt revolvers as they do for the 357 Magnum.

By the way, I was at an auction today and a friend picked up a 45 Caliber Single Action Army and he was amazed how thin the chamber walls are between chambers. He asked me if they are all like that. I said Yup, they're all like that.

Here is a photo I took some time ago of the rear of some cylinders. In the center is an 'original model' (large frame) Ruger Vaquero cylinder, on the left is an Uberti Cattleman, on the right is a 2nd Gen Colt. All chambered for 45 Colt. I forget the actual measurement of how thick the chamber walls are, but this is why I believe in keeping 45 Colt pressures down to the SAAMI spec maximum of 14,000 psi. There just ain't a whole lot of metal there.

cylinders_01.jpg
 
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Could it be due to the fact that two different cylinders are involved here?
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Very good point, to my understanding the cylinder being the pressure vessel is what lets go first.

Excellent pictures Driftwood, as they say a picture is worth a thousand words and your picture show it as it is.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
 
The original Ruger Vaquero (large frame) is NOT an SAA clone. Totally different gun. The New Vaquero, while not an SAA clone either, is much closer in dimensions, and seeks to mimic the look, and feel of an SAA.

Apples, and oranges guys.
 
Getting way off topic. Sevens has it right. The industry pressure standards are for the ammo, not the gun. Your gun is tested and certified for .45acp ammo, so it will handle pressures up to 21,000. .45 LC factory ammo must be under the industry standard but you can load your own above that, and your gun is certified to handle it as long as it does not exceed .45 acp pressure standards.


However, if you have any bad experiences with handloads with ammo beyond industry standards, don't expect the gun mfg to accept any liability.
 
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