SA cartridge guns

[Bezoar]

what about the non colt, non ruger, non freedom arms, and non usfa handguns. How are they at taking lots of lead at high velocity?

Any better with 180 grain slugs in a 357 then others, or only stick to 158? And how do the ones in 44 spcl handle 200 grain bullets at 1000fps?

 

[Hawg]

I can't help you with the .357/44 spcl. but my Uberti 44-40's handle 200 grainers just fine at 1000 fps.

 

[Mark Milton]

Uh, I would keep the reloads at factory spec...

Back in the 1930s, Charlie Askins wrote that the .357 peacemakers were prone to springing frames and the likes due to the recoil of that hot potato round.

Of course, back then, Colt had not started heat treating their handguns yet, and while modern replicas are made from better steels and heat treated than victorian era originals, its still a good idea to show some respect to the old designs.

 

[olyinaz]

While I don't have thousands of rounds down range with them yet, both of my Uberti .357s handle factory spec .357 just fine and with no signs of stress in either the cases or the frame that I can see. But I guess my question is why do you ask? Factory .357 is plenty hot as it is and these guns are not exactly optimized for handgun hunting so perhaps a bit more info re. your query might be helpful?

Over time I guess I always worry about .357 flame cutting my top strap and/or eroding the forcing cone in every .357 I've got so even in my modern .357s I tend to avoid them unless the load is mission specific. What mission do you have in mind?

Thanks,
Oly

 

[CaptainCrossman]

OP: I'd err on the safe side, if you want to shoot high velocity 357 magnum loads from a SA pistol, get a modern gun w/hardened, heat treated frame, barrel, and cylinder.

Ruger makes relatively low-cost modern SA guns that handle all the popular magnum calibers. The internals on a Ruger are bigger/stronger than the real Colt SAA to boot.

Not worth risking your eyesight, or life over. Low bucking it with a BP/cowboy action frame/cylinder can lead to disaster- what's your eyes worth.

 

[CraigC]

I have to disagree with some of the sentiments above. You'd be hard-pressed to hurt a SAA or replica in .357. They are plenty of gun for the cartridge and stronger than any mid-frame double action, less prone to shoot loose than N-frames. A good modern SAA or replica .44Spl will also handle the 1200fps Keith load, though most would suggest using them sparingly. So 1000fps is handled easily, most like the 7.5gr Unique "Skeeter" load for general purposes.

Of course, back then, Colt had not started heat treating their handguns yet

"Heat treating" is such an ambiguous term. For case hardening is a form of heat treatment and the earliest Colt's had case hardened frames, hammers, triggers bolts and hands. So yes, they've all been "heat treated". I have it on good authority that Colt started heat treating the frames to withstand greater pressures in the 1920's.

if you want to shoot high velocity 357 magnum loads from a SA pistol, get a modern gun w/hardened, heat treated frame, barrel, and cylinder....Not worth risking your eyesight, or life over. Low bucking it with a BP/cowboy action frame/cylinder can lead to disaster- what's your eyes worth.

There's absolutely no rational reason for this logic whatsoever.....none.

 

[CaptainCrossman]

Craig, I'd have to disagree with you, and with a large degree of prejudice. A Ruger is vastly superior to an imported single action gun from Italy, be it cartridge or cap/ball- that's been documented and tested, years ago.

Put a full-house 357 magnum load in a "cowboy" action Italian repro gun, and it is going to blow the cylinder apart in short order. Magnum cylinders are hardened/heat treated all the way through- cowboy action guns from Italy are as soft as a crayon- the case hardening only hardens the outer .010" or so of the cylinder.

you are recommending some very dangerous shooting practices here, and someone following them can end up losing their eyesight, or their life. Do you want that responsibility, and are you willing to risk a personal injury lawsuit with those recommendations ?

see quote below on Ruger heat treat compared to Italian repros

 

[4V50 Gary]

Too bad it's out of line with SWAT magazine, but I'd love to see some validation tests on the guns. I've known for years that some Spanish and Italian gunmakers did use softer steel (back in the mid '70s), but they have to pass proofing and there's a lot of liability associated with releasing a defective product on the market. Everyone in the chain of commerce gets their pants sued off. Even if you don't get sued, paying off your attorney will amount to a princely sum.

The big gun factories are equipped with metallurgy labs. I know S&W and Ruger both have them (been to both factories). I'd love to see them run tests, but they're reluctant to spend time and effort to prove a competitor's design is bad or poorly executed. If we left it to a private lab, the antis will get hold of the results and tout the results as a basis for more restrictions ("See, they're unsafe and blow up like handgrenades when you fill the it up to the brim with Bullseye" :barf.

As far as brass frames are concerned, the Confederacy resorted to brass as a measure of expediency and not because they thought it was the ideal metal for guns. Naturally, one cannot expect brass to withstand the pounding that a modern manufactured (and heat treated) gun can take. For those with brass frames, it is advisable to keep the load mild. It's all for sport and fun and no one is going into combat with them. Anyone seeking the latter should use a metallic cartridge gun - preferably a long arm.

As with anything, do things within reason, remember caveat emptor when buying and don't try making your blackpowder guns into hand cannons. I don't have any replicas handguns and with the exception of a couple of Colts, all my single actions are Rugers (including my Old Armies).

 

[mykeal]

I have to disagree with some of the sentiments above.

Considering who you're responding to the word should be spelled 'sediments'.

 

[grymster2007]

I've known for years that some Spanish and Italian gunmakers did use softer steel (back in the mid '70s), but they have to pass proofing and there's a lot of liability associated with releasing a defective product on the market. Everyone in the chain of commerce gets their pants sued off. Even if you don't get sued, paying off your attorney will amount to a princely sum.

Well put, Gary.

While I don't advocate exceeding the design intent of a given gun, broadly implying that "soft" steel is somehow unsafe in a gun, demonstrates ignorance or maybe even dishonesty.

I've personally machined nearly every steel imaginable and I can say that the difference between cutting "mushy" 1018 and something more substantial, such as 4150, is hardly noticeable. In general, steel is pretty strong stuff and soft does not necessarily equal weak or unworthy for a given application.

 

[CraigC]

Craig, I'd have to disagree with you, and with a large degree of prejudice......Put a full-house 357 magnum load in a "cowboy" action Italian repro gun, and it is going to blow the cylinder apart in short order.

You are wrong on so many levels, as usual. NO FACTORY is going to produce a firearm in a factory chambering that will not withstand constant use of factory loads in that chambering. NOT EVER! You are foolish beyond description if you think otherwise. I'd like to know where you get your information from, I'm sure it's not a credible source. You also do not take into consideration Ruger's use of castings vs. the import guns' use of forged parts, namely the receiver. Funny how in a lifetime of research on this subject, I've never heard of an Italian replica "blowing up" from a factory or SAAMI-spec handload. I know of one particular gunwriter that feeds his Uberti SAA .357 with more 2400 than you'll find in any loading manual.

So, PROVE IT!!!

In a discussion about cartridge guns, why the hell are you even bringing up percussion guns like the Old Army.

 

[Indian Outlaw]

It is getting hard to read this nonsense over and over.

 

[long rider]

Well i told you guys, captain knows how to
press your buttons, and you fall for it,

 

[timothy75]

I've shot max (Keith) 2400 loads in 45colt Cimarrons with no ill effect whatsoever. Primers looked great, cases slid out and great accuracy in fact. Those cylinder walls are a lot thinner than ones in 357. The fixed solid base pin and large 45 sized cylinders of the SA design allow your run of the mill uberti 357 to outlast any DA simply by design. Remember Colt used to be the strongest design sorta like Rugers today. So anyone who thinks your limited to 600fps cowboy action loads in replicas ought to read more than just the Ruger articles.

 

[madcratebuilder]

Considering who you're responding to the word should be spelled 'sediments'.

That made me spit my coffee all over my key board.:barf:
I may start using that as a sig line. My hats off to mykeal.