S&W Model 65 enigma

F

FISHY-A-NADO

New member
At the range last night firing my first batch of reloads (.38 spl) through my Model 65, I had the following happen: First 2 full cylinders, no hiccups; 6th pull of the trigger on 3rd cylinder, FTF; 6th pull of the trigger on 4th cylinder, FTF; 5th full cylinder, no hiccups; 5th pull of trigger on 6th cylinder, FTF. Balance of the 50 rounds all went bang as expected. Examination of the 3 rounds that FTF revealed a "normal" looking indention in the primer identical to the rounds that had actually fired as they should have. Since these were reloads (and my first ones) I thought maybe the primers might be bad. I put the three rounds back in the gun. 2 of them fired on the first attempt but the third took a third attempt before it fired.

I then proceeded to shoot a box of factory loaded .38 spl (Winchester white box). I had the same issue with 2 of 50 rounds. 1 in the second loading and one in the 4th loading. That got me to thinking that it might not be my primers or my reloading after all.

After the 100 rds of .38 spl, I switched to factory loaded Remington .357 magnum. I ran 50 rounds through with no issues.

When I arrived home, I was looking over the empties before I dumped them into the tumbler and on exactly 8 of the .357 casings, (1 for each of the 8 full cylinders I ran through, the mark on the primer looked like a tiny raised spot (almost like a small drop of solder) instead of the normal indention. That got me thinking that maybe one of the chambers in my cylinder may have an issue that caused all the FTFs.

Have any of you ever seen something like this with a single chamber in a revolver? I wish I could post a pic but I haven't got a working camera at the moment.

Any insight or suggestions on what to look for will be most appreciated.

Thanks.
 
Has your revolver EVER malfunctioned like that before with factory ammo?

If not, it's probably your re-loads. Could be an issue with seating the primers correctly, or the primers themselves, or any number of things.

Some of the current production S&W's have firing pins that are on the short side which have been known to cause light strikes. If yours is one of those, then you may have had similar problems with certain factory ammo in the past.
 
Maybe check you mainspring tension screw. (This model STILL has that?) If this has backed out the hammer may not be delivering a sufficient blow to the primers. Maybe jus a weak mainspring?

Bob Wright
 
Prior to yesterday, I had only ran about 50 rounds of .38 and 6 rounds of .357 through the gun. No issues in that limited amount of use. I bought it used a few months back after running it through the revolver check out posted on this forum. Everything seemed fine with it as far as the check out went.

I am going back to the range tomorrow with another 50 identical reloads and another box of factory .38. I am going to mark the chambers so that if it happens again I can see if it is one particular chamber or a truly random occurrence. Maybe the strange appearance of the 8 spent primers on the .357 were purely coincidental as I have no real way of knowing if I got exactly one from each full 6 round cylinder. It did seem to be a clue on initial examination.
 
There's lots more expert information in this thread already than I can supply but don't overlook the real obvious stuff. Clean the cylinder really well. There's a slight possibility firing .38 and .357 that the rounds are not seating all the way and they might be moving forward a tiny bit when you try to fire them and because of the movement not firing.

I'd also do like others have suggested and keep track of each chamber in the cylinder to see if there is a pattern to the problem.

Sorry. I see that you ALREADY SAID you were going to mark the chambers. It's a good idea...I've done it on some of mine to see if one chamber was responsible for the occassional flyer I was getting. (In my case it wasn't the gun at all.)

Good luck.
 
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I suppose anything is definitely "possible", but I would say it's a long, long shot that you have any manner of a single chamber problem.

All the suggestions already in the thread will most likely have the answer, in my experience. Absolutely check the main spring strain screw, it needs to be TIGHT or you are not getting the full hammer blow. You will feel how much easier, lighter and more enjoyable your trigger pull becomes just the moment you start loosening that screw. Problem is, this is NOT a proper or acceptable "trigger job" because all it truly does is weaken the strength of the hammer spring, which induces FTFs and misfires.

As you are a new handloader, it's extremely common that you aren't fully seating those primers. Why? Because every new handloader is just convinced that one of these little bombs will blow up at the load bench if they don't handle them with kid gloves. Well, you don't really need to -- these primers are designed to be seated fully, and that means a hair below flush. You should be able to feel a properly seated primer with a careful fingertip, and use factory rounds as a guide. Below flush, bottom those primers. And whatever tool you are using to prime your cases is specifically designed to put pressure in the CORRECT place, to avoid detonation at the bench.

One way to get past that fear would be to take a towel and drape it entirely over the tool you are using to prime cases -- and then give it some GORILLA strength to see if you can find a limit. I'm not saying you should make it part of your handloading routine to impart gorilla strength as a regular process :p, but removing the "fear" that you might "push too hard" will give you piece of mind to prime cases properly. (the towel draped over everything is to contain the "blast" if/when you -do- manage to blow one) It's been my experience that ONLY when a primer is halfway in/out of where it's SUPPOSED to be do you -EVER- have a detonation at the bench. The tools and the primers are designed very well!

When you don't seat a primer fully, the first hammer hit that fails to ignite the round simply seats the primer FOR you, as you should have done at the bench. The second attempt fires them as if it was built properly in the first place. But no worries, this is extremely common for any new handloader.

As for what you see on your fired brass, keep in mind that "reading primers" is a very inexact science. The .357 primers should look quite different than the .38s or your handloads. It's about the fact that the primer is most likely different, with a harder and/or thicker cup, and much more pressure inside that is filling that cup around the firing pin as the magic happens. the pressure is very nearly TWICE in the .357 ammo and the primer is just not likely to look the same.

I'll bet if you ensure that strain screw is good & tight, and you bottom out all your primers when you prime cases, you'll see this problem in the rear view mirror. :)
 
Great Info!

Thanks for all the input. I didn't get a chance to go back to the range as planned yet but I will look at each of the suggested areas this weekend to see what I find and report back later.

While anything is possible, I'm pretty sure it isn't a primer seating issue. I used quite a bit of force while seating them using a Lee Challenger press and carefully examined every case before proceeding. Each one was seated slightly below flush as prescribed and I could feel them bottom out in the pocket as I was seating.

I am going to load an identical batch tonight and run them through tomorrow after a thorough cleaning, checking of the main spring, etc.
 
1. Single or double action firing? In either case, check strain screw in the front strap near the butt. Try to screw it in tighter. Sometimes in selling a gun the strain screw is let out to give the impression the gun has an "action job."

2. It's possible the previous owner put in new lighter Wolff springs, or some other manufacturer, which again gives the impression of an "action job." Usually the lighter springs do two things: The hammer spring imparts less power (snap) to the primer and while most will go off, some won't first time around; trigger return spring allows for a softer trigger pull, sometimes even a mushy one, where the trigger returns more slowly to the forward position rather than "snapping" back into place.

A smooth double action or single action is preferable for reliability and ease of shooting to the overly soft actions provided in after market spring kits.
Remember, smooth doesn't equate to very light trigger pulls or hammer cocking.

One answer is to get regular factory springs put into the gun--even if the ones are factory they may be less than their original strength if the gun has really be used a lot, I mean a lot.

So, ask yourself, does the current action seem "buttery" or even a bit mushy without a lot of authoritative snap to the hammer and return of the trigger.
 
Re: the strain screw...

In addition to checking the tightness of the strain screw, I also recommend removing it and checking its length. Filing it down is yet another "Bubba Action Job" trick that can lead to light strikes. :rolleyes: If you don't have another S&W revolver for comparison, post the length, and I'm sure one of us can measure one of our strain screws. :)

FWIW you can make your own adjustable strain screw by purchasing a 1/2"-long 8-32 socket head cap screw at your local hardware store and using a file or Dremel to flatten the end; they usually come pointed, and a pointed end may damage the spring. The set screw will allow you to adjust the mainspring tension by turning the screw with an Allen wrench- tighten it until you don't get any more light strikes. However, the main problem with this trick is that the screw will tend to loosen under recoil unless you Loctite it, but Loctite will obviously make it difficult to adjust again. IOW this works great for a range toy, but I recommend against doing it to a defensive revolver; if the gun will be used for CCW or HD, get a new factory screw.

Factory strain screws and mainsprings are cheap- like less than $20 for both. If in doubt, replace them. However, in your case, I tend to agree that improperly seated primers are likely to be the main problem.
 
Since the gun has problems, I will take the headache off your hands for $200. The gun is unsafe, and the problems will only get worse, so let me take it off your hands. I will take your headache away and you will be much better off. You're welcome!
 
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Main Spring Screw

Maybe check you mainspring tension screw. (This model STILL has that?) If this has backed out the hammer may not be delivering a sufficient blow to the primers. Maybe jus a weak mainspring?
Click to expand...

Absolutely check the main spring strain screw, it needs to be TIGHT or you are not getting the full hammer blow.
Click to expand...

Single or double action firing? In either case, check strain screw in the front strap near the butt. Try to screw it in tighter.
Click to expand...

Well, Whaddya know?!?! Finally got a chance to drag out the tools to remove the grips and have a look-see inside. As several of you suggested, the screw had been backed out just over 2 full turns. I tightened it back up as recommended and hopefully that has solved the problem. Unfortunately, I did not get a chance to actually fire it since the "repair" so not sure of the results but will test it tomorrow.

Since the gun has problems, I will take the headache off your hands for $200. The gun is unsafe, and the problems will only get worse, so let me take it off your hands. I will take your headace away and you will be much better off. You're welcome!
Click to expand...

Thanks for your most generous offer and concern over future headaches but I'm willing to take my chances. :D
 
Since the gun has problems, I will take the headache off your hands for $200. The gun is unsafe, and the problems will only get worse, so let me take it off your hands. I will take your headace away and you will be much better off. You're welcome!
Click to expand...

Some people are really helpful...................I'll make it $250:D

Seriously tightening the screw should fix the problem, if not check the cylinder end shake. With the cylinder closed see if you can slide it back and forth. You should have some play but too much may allow the cylinder to slide too far forward where you don't get full contact with the firing pin.

Simple fix if this is the problem, Midway and Brownell sells bushings or shims to fix this.

But at two full turns of the screw, I bet you fixed your problem.
 
You had me a little worried when you mentioned the "spot of solder" look to the primers. A few things things can cause that. A very hot load causing the primer to flow back. A very soft primer cup, that can allow it to flow back. A wallowed out firing pin hole OR a very weak mainspring. Basically, what happened is that as the gun fired, the expanding gas pushed back through the flash hole in the case and pushing the primer back. The hammer did not have enough energy from the mainspring to keep it in place, and, the primer flowed back. Thats on the rounds that actually got hit with enough energy to fire them.

Easy fix, glad you found it.
 
Seems the spring's the thing

Finally got a chance to go back to the range after tightening the strain screw on the mainspring. Ran through 100 rounds of my reloads in .38 special, 50 rounds of factory .38 and 12 rounds of .357 mag that I reloaded last night (working up my first new recipe). So, 162 shots with nary a hiccup. Great groups at both 10 and 15 yards with both reloads and factory rounds.

Thanks to all who keyed in on the strain screw as the most likely culprit. You guys certainly know your stuff! :)

Now I just gotta figure out how to get decent groups shooting D/A with the darn thing. :confused:
 
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