S&W M15-3

K

kojak

New member
I have recently bought my first handgun ever, a S&W Model 15-3 3k1524. I am a very bad shooter and the M15 is the first gun I like. Unfortunately it has some issues. The cylinder wiggles about 0.06" left/right and 0.004" front/back. Cylinder gap is 0.008 if the cylinder is in the front position and 0.012 if in the back position. If I swing out the cylinder the crane moves ca. 0.01" front/back. I didn't have the possibility to check it out before as it was sold on the internet.

What happened to that gun? Otherwise it's totally ok aside from a little holster wear. Was this really a police weapon or rather an instructors gun? The price was very good, Euro 179,- with holster, ammunition and shipping. Keep in mind that over here in Europe gun prices tend to be 50% higher than in the U.S. so it translates "raw" into US$100 (= Euro 150 + 20 holster + 9 shipping).

What should I do with it? Fire it until it breaks, minor repair by a gunsmith or total rework by S&W? How much would each option cost?

What about +P? I need at least +P for defense against wild boar.
 
The endshake is a little excessive but not too bad. When the cylinder is open, the shake is somewhat normal as all of my S&W's do this and it does not seem to be a problem. A qualified gunsmith or S&W could tighten it up for you very well. I would not use +P's until you get it tightened. They will cause the endshake to get worse. As far as wild boar defense, if the first shot doesn't scare it off then wait for it to tackle you then put one in his eye or ear. Personal experience, not opinion. Once your gun gets tightened up it should serve you well.
 
Nothing happened to the gun, really.

All of those sound to be well in tolerance for a mechanical device that requires those parts to move freely so as to promote reliable operation.


All of my S&W revolvers do exactly what you're talking about to various degrees.
 
Thanks very much. I really like that gun. I am willing to spend Euro 150,- or something to fix up as many things as possible. Endshake, cylinder gap, blueing. Some screws are messed up, too.

Does anybody know how much the S&W "restauration package" is?

BTW, the serial number (3k1524) is the number behind the crane. Is that the right serial number? I heard the serial number was on the butt and not behind the crane. I haven't removed the grips yet so I can't tell.
 
Is that endshake measuered with cartridges in the cylinder... it can make a difference if the 15-3 doesn't have recessed chambers. The case heads will take up some of the end shake as they lay between the chamber shoulder and the recoil shield.
 
Kojak, yours was made in 1971 as thats a valid serial number.

If the cylinder locks up tight when its cocked it should be ok. Check each of the six cylinders for tightness.
 
I think you were ripped off. That revolver has been gotten to by a gungorilla. I strongly suggest you contact S&W and check into them rebuilding that M15-3. All of your issues will be taken proper care of. This sounds like a revolver that has been abused, improperly maintained, a gungorilla has been at the action and the so-called "instructors" lie is inventive to say the least. There are crooks out there. Be careful. No, I would not shoot that revolver. Deadline it and send it to S&W. Sorry.
 
"it can make a difference if the 15-3 doesn't have recessed chambers."

NO Model 15 has recessed chambers. The recessed chambers are found ONLY on pre-1983ish rimfire and magnum revolvers.



WHOA. Wait a second...

Do you mean 0.06 rotation, or 0.006 rotation?

If .06, that IS excessive!
 
Kojak, I based my comments on your dimensional tolerances as posted. Mike Irwin raised a flag with me in his question. Which measurement is the correct one? Thanks!
 
A good gunsmith should be able to shim out endshake of .004" if necessary.

As for the cylinder rotating when locked, inspect the locking grooves on the cylinder. These are the notches just outside of each chamber. See if these are uniform in width; have any burrs, rounded edges, etc. Does the cylinder exhibit a bright line between each locking notch (where the bolt drags as the cylinder rotates)? Is this line show engraving into the metal or just a light rubbing off of the finish? An engraved line indicates a lot of use.

Also inspect the cylinder stop ("bolt") at the bottom rear of the frame. It should be without any burrs, the sides vertical, parallel to each other and flat. The shape should fit tightly into each chamber's notch. Does the stop have any side play? It should move freely up & down but not side to side.

Worst case would be needing a new cylinder and cylinder stop/bolt. You would keep your star extractor to simplify replacment.

Gun Parts Corp usually has many S&W parts in stock, including screws.
See: http://gunpartscorp.com

Contact S&W directly to determine what a full restoration job would cost. My guess is that it would probably cost twice what you paid for the gun.
Check out their Performance Center Services price list and contact them directly.

And send us some photos of that Model 15! :D
 
The "Performance Enhancement Package" is US$125 + US$100 refinishing. That doesn't sound too bad.

I was at my gunsmith with that M15 and he said it was in a normal shape for age etc. I measured everything without cartridges in it, so the actual numbers could be better. I don't have it over here (2nd home), so I can't inspect it now. Tomorrow I'll go to the range with it.

The rotational play of the cylinder seems to me when I remember right 1mm to 1.5mm and that translates into ca. .04 to .06". Rotational play clockwise/counterclockwise not left/right. However, I checked the M15 for timing and the chambers and barrel align perfectly if you look down the barrel. The curious thing is if I look down the barrel at full lockup and turn the cylinder I don't notice any misalignement. So perhaps the 1mm rotational play is overstated? I'll check it again tomorrow before I go to the range.

The endshake feels to be way more than the .004 if you wiggle the cylinder, but if you measure it at the barrel/cylinder gap it gets bigger by .004 "only" with no empty cartridges in it.

The most impressive thing I saw at the gunsmith was a .38 special J-Frame snub wich had a rock solid cylinder. Then there was one czech revolver which in new condition had as much play as my old 15-3.

And for prices: a used 686 with 6" barrel costs Euro 750 at shops in near new condition. My brother bought one for Euro 500 from the widow of a passed-away guy. So prices are a bit different over here in Europe.

The guy I bought the 15-3 from had it bought 10 years ago from Frankonia. I know that they imported police models back then, but you don't know what police model. You could get a normal police model 15 which wasn't fired very often. But then you could as well get models that were used excessively at the range. I bet the gun was in the same bad condition 10 years ago as it's now, people over here tend to use their guns very very seldom.

In the end, how bad this one may be, I want more of that K-frame blued S&Ws! Never had that "I got to get another one" feeling before with any gun. Now i understand why so many people collect S&W.
 
You will want to be alert for spitting. If the chambers of the cylinder aren't in alignment with the bore, small bits will spit out and backwards or sideways from the bullets. My left hand is tattooed now from such spitting. I did bleed too. The guy had a loose as a goose M586 that was shaving bullets. Be alert. If anything seems out of the ordinary, stop shooting. I would even suggest that you only load one cartridge in the cylinder to start with. Do this with each chamber before fully loading the cylinder. I do think it is well worth sending back to S&W for rebuilding.
 
I'll recheck timing and rotational play. I'll wear eye protection, too. I plan to use .38 wadcutters.

I looked for the price of decent guns. The ones I found come from S&W collections and aren't fired at all or very little. The asking price for such guns is Euro 400 (model 10) which is very hefty. I guess ones that are like new would sell for Euro 250 to 300. So even if I let rebuild my 15-3 it wasn't that bad a deal. The bad thing is almost every M15 over here was a police weapon. So it's very difficult to find one that's in very good condition.

And I've got my next one: M14-1 with trigger shoe. Euro 100 and I'll need no shipping. I'm curious how well that one will be. Does anybody know if I can use +P in that one? DOM 1959-61

The only handguns I shot till now are a Glock in 10mm auto and a Makarov. I didn't like both of them. I would never buy a auto, just my personal taste. Even crappy Makarovs sell for Euro 120 over here. Unfortunately you are allowed to have only 2 autos or revolvers as a hunter so the market is very narrow and prices vary very much.

Thanks for all the answers, I'll report after shooting my gun and perhaps make a few pictures.
 
What about +P? I need at least +P for defense against wild boar.
Click to expand...

I just wanted to say be careful. Over here a smart boar hunter will use no less than a .44magnum on those critters. I don't know about the boars in Europe, but the ones here are well known to be the most vicious and hard to put down animal short of a grizzly. Be careful, and get good advice from experienced boar hunters.
 
You're right indeed. The only handgun really useful against wild boar is a .44 magnum. Unfortunately these guns are a little bit too heavy for my taste. Also you only are allowed to own two handguns (but as many rifles as you like) here in Germany, as a hunter. Add the fact that I'm a bad handgun shooter and that I don't like neither autos nor stainless guns and you'll see why I regard handguns as toys. The best thing I can buy is a gun that I like. And one that teaches me to shoot well. I found that with the K-frame blued .38 S&Ws.

I don't think a .38 (even 6 of them) will stop a wild boar. But better than nothing. A wild boar won't go after you unless he's wounded. So that situation is very unlikely. But I know some people who had to defend themselves. Sometimes 10 hits with 9x19 don't stop a wild boar. 10 hits possible only by the fact that the dog attacked the boar, too.
Sometimes we've got East European car thiefs in the forest ripping valuable parts out of stolen cars. Those guys will shoot immediately. But again, better .38 special than nothing. As long as I've got my .30-06 I don't have to use the revolver. The best thing is to run. Then shoot from the distance, you'll be extremely superior with a rifle at say 80 yard.
 
Ok, rechecked rotational play. It is ca 0.5mm not 1mm or above like it felt. That is .020 rotational play.

To my surprise the rotational play is only .008 if I press the crane against the frame. If I push the cylinder from the right a gap between the crane and frame of ca. .012 appears. look at the pictures.

http://www.tzi.de/~kojak/m15-3a.jpg
http://www.tzi.de/~kojak/m15-3b.jpg
http://www.tzi.de/~kojak/m15-3c.jpg

first one with the gap as it looks in reality, the second one overstates the gap a little, it looks bigger as it is. the third one shows when I press the crane against the frame.

If I swing out the cylinder I can move the crane forward/backward a little. Also I can move the cylinder on the ejector rod .020 or so!

See pictures
http://www.tzi.de/~kojak/m15-3d.jpg
http://www.tzi.de/~kojak/m15-3e.jpg

Overall picture:
http://www.tzi.de/~kojak/m15-3f.jpg

"As for the cylinder rotating when locked, inspect the locking grooves on the cylinder. These are the notches just outside of each chamber. See if these are uniform in width; have any burrs, rounded edges, etc. Does the cylinder exhibit a bright line between each locking notch (where the bolt drags as the cylinder rotates)? Is this line show engraving into the metal or just a light rubbing off of the finish? An engraved line indicates a lot of use."

The locking grooves look fine, all 6 chambers have the same rotational play (perhaps it's the locking bolt that could be replaced?). The line shows no engraving, but the finish is removed completely at the line.

What do you think of that?
 
.02 is a lot more reasonable.

Yes, then can be a lot tighter, but .02 isn't at all bad.

If it doesn't spit lead, all the chambers align with the bore, and it's accurate, leave it alone.
 
In the case of the .38 vs. european boar, if that is all you have I would stay away from hollowpoints and stay with solid lead or full metal jacket. I think Fiocchi make a 158 grain .38 full metal jacket.
 
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