S&W M&P? Model 10? ID help!

K

Krispyz

Inactive
Hi guys, I have a particular pistol that has come into my possession that I know very little about. I know there are some Smith and Wesson buffs in this forum, so I thought you guys could help me out.

All I know about its history is that it was bought in 1982 at a gun show by my father in law. It was marketed to him as a "police pistol" and is chambered in .38 special. I believe it is either/both an M&P or a Model 10 (what I've read has been very sketchy about whether these are the same models or different, so if anyone can clear that up, that'd be great). I also know that it has been re-blued since it was bought at the gun show, and poorly. The cylinder looks like it was blued separate from the rest of the gun, you can see the difference in the photos.

In any case, I was told to look on the yoke with the cylinder swung out for a model number, but it's not there. I have a photo of the number stamped there, but I'm not sure if it's a serial number or what and no other number is stamped in that location.

Here are the photos, I'll answer any questions as best I can, any assistance would be appreciated!
 
It`s a M&P , the ejector, shape of the front site & hammer will be the tell/tell as to how old it is .

Looks as if it`s been reblued as the S&W logo is very thin & little rubbing .
I`d stik to standard loads until ya find out the age as some early S&W M&Ps were`nt tempered rite for +p ammo.

Some more informed S&W people will be along shortly .:cool:
 
The gun is a .38 Military & Police Model of 1905, 4th Change. The gun is what's commonly known as a "pre-Model 10", but it did not have a model number when it was built. It was probably built sometime in the 1930s, but S&W assembled revolvers out of sequential order using stockpiled parts during this time period, so a production date cannot be nailed down without a factory letter.

Prior to 1957, S&W "Hand Ejector" swing-out cylinder revolvers only had names, not model numbers. In 1957, S&W superimposed a new model numbering system on their lineup by assigning model numbers 10-19 to K (medium) frames, 20-29 to N (large) frames, 30-38 to I or J (compact) frames, the number 39 to the 9mm automatic pistol, and the number 40 to the "Centennial" concealed-hammer J frame .38Spl revolver. Later models were assigned numbers in a haphazard semi-consecutive fashion. The numbers 1-9 were not used, presumably because some would duplicate the model numbers of earlier tip-up and top-break revolvers.

The naming system is confusing because the actual model names are normally only found on two S&W models: the Highway Patrolman (pre-Model 28, N frame .357Mag) and the .38 Regulation Police (pre-Model 33, I frame .38S&W). The only way to determine the model name for other pre-1957 guns is to check the box and owner's manual, which are usually missing, or more commonly to correlate the gun's frame size, capacity, chambering, and type of sights. For this reason, many people use the phrase "pre-Model" to describe earlier named guns that are similar to a post-1957 numbered model.

The numbers inside the yoke cut are assembly numbers used to aid production. They mean nothing after the revolver ships. The serial number should also be repeated on the rear cylinder face on a gun from this era; if it's missing, it's likely that the cylinder has been replaced, which may help explain the non-matching finish.

The grips on the gun are post-1968, and look like late 70s vintage to me, judging by the color of the wood. The originals would have looked like the ones on the gun in this post:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4890586&postcount=11

The countersunk hole in the butt is not original, and I can't quite figure out its intended purpose. :confused: WWII-era military-issue guns had a hole for a lanyard loop there, but it doesn't look right for that, and the serial number is too early.

Two warnings:
  • Keep +P ammo far, far away from this gun! Early .38M&P cylinders were not heat-treated as well as later examples and may come apart with sustained use of +P.
  • The 4th Change incorporated a "wing" or "pivoting" hammer block that is hinged to the sideplate and is pushed out of the way as the trigger is pulled. This safety device, although it's better than nothing, is prone to failure because rust, grease, and/or dirt can jam it in the disengaged position, and it is known to break with extended use. Unless it is inspected for proper function, do NOT count on it to prevent accidental discharge if the gun is dropped with a loaded round under the hammer! In 1944, it was replaced by a superior sliding hammer block in the sideplate, which is nearly immune to breakage or jamming and is more failsafe if the revolver is dropped with the hammer cocked. The sliding design continues to be used today.
 
Looks like it could be a parts gun to me.

The number on the butt doesn't seem to match the number under the barrel.

On the rear face of the cylinder (if it wasn't wiped out in the reblue) there should also be the serial number.

Does it match either of those two?


EDIT IN:

Hum... No, those numbers DO match.

It was probably made and had the serial number stamped in 1940 or 1941 and may have been one of the relatively few guns to escape the factory as a civilian .38 Special when the company was making guns flat out fast as they could to fulfill British requirements after the Light Rifle fiasco.

My guess is the hole in the butt is that it later went into military service as the personal gun of a soldier who had it drilled for a lanyard swivel.
 
I think the butt/barrel numbers do match (neglecting the digit on the butt that was obliterated by the mystery drilled hole - mounting hole for an owner-addded lanyard ring, perhaps?). I just think the stamping isn't very clear. Zooming in on the pictures, both numbers appear to be "619336", and the one under the barrel has a "B" off to the left of it.
 
Scott,

Yep, I figured out I could zoom, and edited my original post while you were posting the same thoughts as I did -- after-market lanyard swivel.

My guess? It was a soldier's personal gun.

Be nice if it could be tied to an individual.
 
I checked the back of the cylinder. I hadn't noticed the number stamped there, but it does match the one under the barrel and on the butt. So the cylinder is a match, and does not explain the strange blue-ing.

Carguychris, lots of great information! I'm impressed by the amount of info in your comment. Would the B near the under-barrel serial number be the factory letter?

And thanks for the warnings about the ammo and the hammer plate! I like this gun, but I'll definitely get it inspected.
 
And thanks for the warnings about the ammo and the hammer plate! I like this gun, but I'll definitely get it inspected.
Click to expand...

Definitely get it inspected, but assuming it passes muster, don't be afraid to shoot the heck out of it (using appropriate ammo, of course). I have a pre-model 10 from 1930 or thereabouts that comes to the range with me nearly every trip. I've lost track of how many people I've introduced to shooting using that gun with light target loads, and it's always a favorite!

Mine has a little bit of history, but only within my own family. My grandfather bought it new, and used it for many years. In the fifties, he wanted something that used less-expensive ammo to shoot snakes with (this was in rural Pennsylvania), so he traded it to my father for a Ruger .22 pistol.

My father shot it occasionally and kept it as his "nightstand gun". When Texas passed its concealed-carry law, he wanted a semi-automatic to practice and take the test with, since taking the test with a semi allows you to carry either a semi or a revolver, while taking the test with a revolver only allows you to carry a revolver. I had a Glock 19 at the time that had never given me a lick of trouble, so I trusted it to be his carry gun. He traded me the S&W for the Glock.

I don't have any children, so sometime in the next few decades I need to find someone to give it to. :)
 
Well, if you don't find anyone locally, you can always send it my way ;).

This gun is one of many I have recently acquired and it's one I really want to shoot. I'm glad I posted here first, though.
 
The bluing is easy.

It's been reblued. And whomever polished it prior to rebluing it had a VERY heavy and VERY hamfisted approach. The variations in color between the cylinder and frame could be the result of a couple of things...

1. The cylinder wasn't in all that bad of shape, so it wasn't reblued. I've seen people cut corners like that.

2. The cylinder wasn't left in the bluing tank as long as the frame, so it didn't take the same color.

3. The cylinder was blued separately from the frame, and by the time the cylinder got dunked the bluing salts were nearing exhaustion.

The cylinder on your gun has been heat treated, that started around serial number 220,000, IIRC. That means that it is more durable than an earlier gun, but it does NOT mean that you can shoot +Ps in it.

Well, you can, but the gun will start to shake loose in VERY short order.
 
I checked the back of the cylinder. I hadn't noticed the number stamped there, but it does match the one under the barrel and on the butt. So the cylinder is a match, and does not explain the strange blue-ing.
Click to expand...

Usually, the purple color is the result of either the bluing salts not being hot enough or the steel used for the part has a high nickel content.

Now, I have to be the bearer of bad tidings; That hole drilled for a lanyard swivel obliterated one of the numbers, making a very good case for an altered/defaced serial number.
 
Would the B near the under-barrel serial number be the factory letter?
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No, by "factory letter", I was referring to what the company calls a Firearm History Request. They send you a letter detailing the gun's model, shipment date, its original destination, and its as-built configuration.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...4_750001_750051_757825_-1_757814_757812_image

I don't know what the "B" means. I've seen nickel guns with an "N" for "Nickel" stamped here, so perhaps the "B" indicates "Blue"; I've not seen such a mark on other old S&Ws, but anything is possible!
It's been reblued. And whomever polished it prior to rebluing it had a VERY heavy and VERY hamfisted approach.
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+1; no offense, but this is one of the lousiest rebluing jobs I've seen on an old S&W. :( FWIW the factory bluing on S&Ws from this era was gorgeous when new- a mirror-like deep glossy black- but it typically did not withstand wear well. This is the reason why old M&Ps with nice factory finish are worth a LOT more than worn or reblued examples, which constitute easily 95%+ of the guns in circulation.
 
No worries either of you, I recognized it was likely just a crappy bluing job. I don't know who my father in law had do it, but it doesn't seem like a professional job. I'm definitely not offended. I still like the gun and am excited to take it to the range (after the inspection, of course).

@ Gyvel, when you say altered or defaced, do you mean you think someone drilled that hole to make it look like the numbers matched? It seems an odd number to drill out and since the rest of the numbers appear consistent... I guess I just don't see what the point would be.

Well, I'm under no illusion that this is a valuable gun, but I'm glad I've gotten such good responses about it. I've learned quite a bit from you guys, so thanks for all the input! I'm always fascinated about the history of the guns I own and this one was a bit of a mystery.
 
@ Gyvel, when you say altered or defaced, do you mean you think someone drilled that hole to make it look like the numbers matched? It seems an odd number to drill out and since the rest of the numbers appear consistent... I guess I just don't see what the point would be.
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What I mean is that the original serial number has been defaced on your particular gun. That is a Federal Offense and has been since 1938. In other words, when they drilled that hole, they eliminated one number from the serial number; That is considered defacing/altering.

Now, having said that, whether anyone wants to do anything about it is another matter. It's an old gun, the drilling was done a long time ago, and, most likely, at the time it was done, nobody thought twice about it. It wasn't a deliberate attempt to eliminate or hide a serial number. Still, it does violate the "letter of the law."

In all likelihood, the only time anything would come of it is if you had a mis-encounter with a real anal sphincter of an LEO or ATF agent.
 
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