S&W hammer block vs. transfer bar confused.

Brutus

New member
Recently began a quest to find a S&W model 686. Found an overpriced example at my local gun shop that I took a pass on. What had me confused is that the 686 retains it's firing pin on the hammer. As a result I assumed it had no firing pin safety, since then I've discovered it does have a hammer block.
The cause of my confusion is the fact that both my 629 and 625 mountain gun have a flat hammer with a spring loaded firing pin in the frame.
Are all Smith L frame revolvers made this way?
Is the system found on my N frames considered a transfer bar?

Having seen hammer mounted firing pins break I always thought the other system more robust.
 
since then I've discovered it does have a hammer block.
The cause of my confusion is the fact that both my 629 and 625 mountain gun have a flat hammer with a spring loaded firing pin in the frame.

To further confuse the matter in your mind, it's possible to have a hammer block with a frame mounted firing pin. (I don't know if S&W was ever this way, but my old Taurus 66 was.)
 
A hammer block and a transfer bar work in fundamentally different ways.

I BELIEVE that all S&W revolvers still employ the hammer block, even with the frame mounted firing pin. My single example of the new design is not with me, however, as it's my Mom's nightstand gun, so I can't easily check.

There's no reason why an S&W with a frame mounted firing pin wouldn't work with a hammer block -- in fact S&W .22s had frame mounted firing pins for years and used the hammer block, not a transfer bar.
 
S&W retains the hammer block, the flat faced MIM hammer hits the frame firing pin directly when pulling the trigger withdraws the block.
 
The only S&W swing-out cylinder models made without hammer blocks are guns made before 1919, and later guns with fully concealed hammers (Models 40 & 42, and series x32, x40, and x42). The latter models lack hammer blocks because they, by definition, cannot be dropped on the hammer.

S&W's made from 1919 to mid-1944 had a pivoting or "wing" style hammer block that was hinged to the sideplate. While better than nothing, this design is prone to jamming in the disengaged position or breaking off altogether, with no external warning to the shooter. :( IMHO this type should not be relied upon unless it is inspected regularly for proper function- and arguably not even then. :rolleyes:

Most 1944 and later S&W's- including those with floating frame-mounted firing pins- have a sliding hammer block that is nearly 100% reliable. Other than the aforementioned concealed-hammer models, IIRC the only postwar S&W's without the sliding hammer block are a few hundred small-frame, target-sighted .32's that were stored in partially-assembled condition when WWII production started, and then completed postwar using prewar parts.
 
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As a result I assumed it had no firing pin safety,


Firing pin safety? I don't believe any revolvers have a firing pin safety of any sort. The other aspects of your comment have been addressed. It seems a common misunderstanding about Smiths and "transfer bars". They've never had them, regardless of where the firing pin resides. The Smith hammer block seems at least as reliable from my experience and understanding.
 
A hammer block and transfer bar use different method to accomplish the same basic thing: preventing the hammer from traveling far enough forward to ignite a primer unless the trigger is pulled.

All S&W revolvers made since WWII, with the exception of DAO "Centennial" models like the M40 and 42, have a sliding-type hammer block regardless of whether they have a hammer or frame mounted firing pin. The sliding-type hammer block is considered very safe and positive and a so-equipped revolver is just as safe to carry fully loaded as one with a transfer bar.

The hammer block itself is a small piece of metal that, when the action is at rest (hammer down, trigger fully forward) sits between the hammer and frame thus restricting the hammer's forward movement. When the trigger is pulled or hammer cocked, the trigger pushes the rebound slide backward. The bottom of the hammer block has a diagonal groove in it which sits over a stud on the side of the rebound slide so that as the rebound slide moves backward, the hammer block is pulled down and out of the path of the hammer. When the trigger moves forward (either by being released after firing the gun or from manually decocking), it allows the rebound slide spring to push the rebound slide forward. As the rebound slide moves forward, it both cams the hammer back a slight amount and pushes the hammer block up into position between the hammer and frame.

As has been mentioned, the only S&W revolvers made since WWII without hammer blocks are the DAO "Centennial" models. These models do not need hammer blocks because their hammers are completely enclosed within the frame thus making a blow to the hammer pretty much impossible.

A transfer bar, on the other hand works in what could be described as the opposite manner of a hammer block. In a transfer bar gun, the hammer has a small shelf on top of it which rests against the frame and thus prevents the hammer from directly contacting the firing pin (this is why all transfer bar revolvers have frame mounted firing pins). The transfer bar itself is a flat piece of metal that is hinged at the bottom to the back of the trigger. When the trigger moves backward by either being pulled or the hammer cocked, the transfer bar slides up into position between the hammer and firing pin. This, in essence, "fills the gap" between the face of the hammer and the firing pin so that when the hammer falls, its energy is transferred through the transfer bar to the firing pin (hence the name). As the trigger moves forward (either by being released after firing or by manually decocking) the transfer bar is pulled back downward and out of the path of the hammer.

As I explained before, both systems are equally positive and safe. The hammer block is, theoretically, slightly less prone to light strikes because none of the hammer's energy is lost through a transfer bar. That being said, I've shot many guns with both types and the only time that light strikes was ever a problem in a transfer bar gun was one which had lighter-than-factory springs installed. On the other hand, the transfer bar system uses fewer parts and looks to me like it would require less machining and thus be less expensive to produce.
 
A well stated and clearly descriptive post.

As clarification of my previous comment about the Smith hammer block system being "at least as reliable" references the common assertion that the Ruger guns utilizing tranfer bar ignition as being as close to bomb proof and utterly reliable as possible. Such has not been my experience however. I personally have broken three transfer bars from two different Ruger single action revolvers, and my local gunsmith has commented that he's replaced a number of them himself, as well as being a known issue to some degree with cowboy action shooters who shoot a lot and dry fire a lot.

I've shot more rounds through Smith revolvers than Rugers and not had any hammer blocks break, know anyone who has broken one, nor have I heard of more than one or two. A transfer bar is stressed every time the gun is fired or dry fired, a hammer block isnt subjected to stress unless the gun is dropped on the hammer on a hard surface. The only moral of that story being experience doesnt always back up the internet or gun lore legends. I've found Smith DA's to be more mechanically reliable than Ruger SA's from a parts breakage perspective. YMMV
 
In theory, a transfer bar is always cushioned by the firing pin and its spring. The hammer-frame gap is sufficient that the transfer bar is never actually crushed between the hammer and the frame. But in the real world, transfer bars are not always so well fitted and many (most?) are given a hard blow by the hammer and can and do break. In fact, the old Iver Johnson transfer bars rarely broke, and I think I have seen only one broken. But they were forged steel, while IIRC Ruger's are cast or MIM.

Jim
 
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