S&W 500mag vs 460mag

[grimlock361]

Ok, so it's pretty much common knowledge that the 500mag is the most powerful handgun. However, according to saami the 460 is the higher pressure cartridge exceeding the 500 by 5000 psi. The last time I checked energy ft lbs favors velocity over mass so pushing a smaller payload with higher pressure should equal a more powerful cartridge. So why is the 500 considered more powerful.

 

[44 AMP]

So why is the 500 considered more powerful.

Probably because, while a convenient system for comparison, calculation of energy (ft/lbs) is not the only factor determining the effective power of a round.

Here's an example showing different ends of the spectrum;

You can load the .22-250 and the .45-70 to identical ft/lbs energy.

Which one do you think would show more "power" if you needed to stop an angry bison?? or bear?

 

[Dufus]

Although I don't own a 460, my understanding is if loaded to max or near max pressures, a hammer and rod are sometimes required to extract the fired cases. Again, I don't own a 460, but this is information relayed to me by a couple of guys that do have them.

I do have a 500, but I load it under max loads.

In order to answer your question, I think 44AMP has given you a logical answer.

 

[grimlock361]

I would agree with the 22-250 and the weak loaded 45-70 compairson but only on dense targets like bears. The greater hydrostatic force of the faster smaller bullet is far more deadly to people providing no barriers are involved. Furthermore, the 460 and 500 are much closer in weight than the previous comparison. I am more suspicious that the 460 factory loads are not at 65000 psi spec but whatever they are the extraction does become difficult after my gun heats up (20 rounds). I'm only asking this stuff because I find it very interesting and wanted a 500 mag but after looking at the saami data I'm left scratching my head. I know there are comparisons on the web but all seem to use factory ammo and/or shot from different length barrels.

 

[buck460XVR]

Ok, so it's pretty much common knowledge that the 500mag is the most powerful handgun.

The greater hydrostatic force of the faster smaller bullet is far more deadly to people providing no barriers are involved.

I remember back when the .44 magnum was "the most powerful handgun in the world". I also remember folks thinking it was "overkill" for use against human predators. While I agree somewhat with you second statement, most folks will argue that even the .460(me as one of them) produces very little of the so called "hydrostatic shock". What you will see, is because of bullet construction differences in .45 caliber and .50 caliber bullets and the increased velocity of the .460, is more expansion, resulting in more wound channel damage. Doubt very much if there is going to be a lot of .460mag and .500mag used intentionally against human predators. The .460 and .500 were both developed for hunting and protection against large and dangerous game. Most folks think that the .500 with its significantly heavier standard for caliber bullet is better for DG and very large big game animals, while the flatter trajectory and lighter standard for caliber bullets used in the .460 are better suited for deer sized game at longer distances, than average straight walled handgun calibers. Kinda where I am at with them. Add to that, the lighter projectiles used in the .460 resulting in less recoil, along with less expensive projectiles for reloading ammo, is what drove my choice between the two.

 

[reddog81]

The calculation for muzzle energy favors velocity to some extent, however the 500 S&W bullets are so massive they tip the scale in favor of 500 S&W.

I'm not sure what situation exists where 2,900 ft lbs of energy would make any difference over 2,800 ft lbs of energy...

When researching the purchase of my S&W 460 I recall reading somewhere there was a discussion with a S&W engineer and they set the limit for 460 ammo at the 65K PSI because any hotter loads would cause the brass to stick so bad it would have become a customer service nightmare. They could have designated a higher PSI and surpassed the 500 S&W, but at that point the gun would be unusable so what's the point. I searched for a minute but couldn't find that reference just now...

 

[Cosmodragoon]

I strongly prefer the .460 for most anything you'd do with an XVR. The more affordable 200-grain loads from Hornady get well over 2000 fps and are relatively comfortable to shoot thanks to the XVR's recoil-mitigation features. Honestly, do you really need more than that?

If you do, you can switch to solids or go up in weight. The latter can be less pleasant to shoot, but not as brutal as the .500. As far as "hydrostatic shock" goes, I'm not sure. What I can tell you is that (1) the aerial shock wave from shooting it is hard to miss, and (2) a 200-grain FTX at around 2200 fps absolutely obliterates water jugs, watermelons, pumpkins, etc.

 

[Lohman446]

If I was buying one of those monsters (I'm not) I would go with the .460 as being much easier to download for by shooting 454 Casull or .45 Long Colt. I'm not and I expect "theoretical only" buyers are not a demographic that S+W was aiming for.

 

[T. O'Heir]

"...So why..." It's mostly about the marketing. Smith says the 500 has more muzzle energy. However, a great deal depends on who loads the cartridge. Buffalo Bore loads the .460 with a 300 grain .452 caliber bullet at 2,060 ft/s with 2,860 ft⋅lbs. of ME. While Hornady loads the 500 with a 300 to 2,075 ft/s to get 2,868 ft⋅lbs. Buffalo Bore's 500 loading is a 440 grain bullet at 1,625 ft/s to get 2,579 ft⋅lbs. Still great big bullets going fast.
50 Hornady cases for either is the same price at Graf's. Suspect you'll be able to find .452" bullets a lot easier, locally, than .500" bullets though. Mind you, Graf's wants $18.89 per 50 for .500" Speer Deep Curls with lots of selection(pricey buying bullets on-line though). Six pages of .452" bullets.

 

[Road_Clam]

Ok, so it's pretty much common knowledge that the 500mag is the most powerful handgun.

An opinionated generalized claim to fame.

I own a 12" 460XVR, and I occasionally shoot with a fellow gun club member who has the 500 mag with the 8-3/8" bbl. We switch back and fourth all the time and chat about caliber differences. Putting aside all the armchair ballistics arguments of both and just laying the lead downrange at 10" steel gongs my takeaway is this :

The .500 is a brute as far as downrange energy at say 50' to 25 yds. You will notice a difference in the steel gong's impact reaction it's more violent than the 460, not by a lot but you notice a difference. Move out to 50 and 75 yds and the .460's flatter faster trajectory starts to show it's strength in better consistent accuracy. I prefer the ease and versatility of loading the .460's .452 dia family of bullets. The 500's are super fun to shoot and put the hugest grin on your face after pulling the trigger but the .500's are a "proprietary" commitment (expensive) to load and shoot. (strictly just my opinions)

 

[Ruger45LC]

Bigger bullet, heavier bullet that penetrates deeper. No need to overthink it, the 500 is definitely more powerful.

 

[briandg]

You asked a complicated question that can't be answered clearly. There are not only different methods of calculating "energy" but you also have to consider, overall, how that energy is delivered. There is a difference, and there is a difference between equal rounds in how it is transferred by these rounds.

If we take the 300 grain bullet both rounds according to my data move at 2,000 fps +-. and they both have energy ratings of a bit less than 3,000 foot-pounds.

So, neither one can seriously claim superiority in simple energy figures for this specific set of circumstances.

Now since we can run the .500 up to a 500 grain bullet at 1,400 fps at maximum loadings, yet the .460 can max out at 1,500 fps for a bullet that is only 395 grains. Their energy was listed as 2,250 and 2,040 foot pounds respectively.

Do we want to talk about using absolute maximum yield, or do we want to just talk in circles about the dozens of different combinations of loads, reaching from lightweights of each to maximum loads of each?

The .500 is obviously capable of much higher energy and probable performance in hunting, based on those figures. Maybe that's correct? The max factory loading that I found for .500 carries about 200 foot pounds of energy more than the .460 in the heaviest bullets in normal use. That's about as much energy of a standard loaded .380 acp. Many people would call that insignificant.

And hey, did anyone notice that the .460 in a 300 grain load has 2,826 and the .500 500 grain has only 2,250? About 400 foot pounds more. That's about the power of a 9mm luger.

Since energy levels are all that matters to a lot of people, it's obvious that a whole lot of people will argue that the .460 is a superior round. I know which one I want my alaskan guide carrying; Neither of them. I want him to be hauling a .45-70 rifle.

 

[Lohman446]

To me the 460 gives you the abilities of a 30-30ish in pistol form. It’s a great accomplishment. Having looked and held a couple I would frankly rather carry a 30-30 on a good sling as I doubt it is any more cumbersome than those monsters.

 

[silvermane_1]

Well a "bigger and heavier bullet is a better bullet" tends to comes to mind.

 

[buck460XVR]

I would frankly rather carry a 30-30 on a good sling as I doubt it is any more cumbersome than those monsters.

.......but then, you'd still be hunting with a Rifle, wouldn't you?

This is a comment I see quite regularly on these types of forums. Odds are it isn't the just weight or the bulk of a X-Frame that keep most of those folks making that comment away, but the idea that killing a deer with a rifle is that much easier also. Seeing deer and having to pass at them because I am using a handgun instead of a rifle is something I encounter often too. But that's why I hunt with a handgun. Some folks never will understand. Apparently it's just fine to have a .338 Lapua with a biopod attached and a 20X laser scope so one can shoot a deer at 800 yards, but having a handgun that can shoot out to 150 yards is a monstrosity. If I had to use my rifle for deer anymore, I'd quit gun deer hunting. It's just too easy. Anyone can do it. Same reason I bow hunt. Sure it extends the season and gives me many more, opportunities, but having to have deer come in naturally at 35 yards or less, is a challenge and a thrill I will never get over. Spent last week sittin' in a tree in below freezing weather and had 3 different 140+ bucks within 35 yards. Would had been a chip shot for a 30-30 at any of them. With my bow, I never got a decent shot presented, so i didn't shoot. At 65 years of age, just shootin' another deer with a rifle doesn't do it for me anymore. Still, unlike the quote above, I respect the right of others to do things differently without having to ridicule.

 

[Lohman446]

Still, unlike the quote above, I respect the right of others to do things differently without having to ridicule.

I think you took the word monstrosity and later monsters to have far more negative connotations to it than I intended. I used the word only in reference to the sheer size, weight, and ability of the firearm. They are a monster of a pistol and to me a 30-30 is more readily carried though that expectation is limited to not having fielded one for a day.

It was never intended to be ridicule. Getting the abilities of a 30-30 in pistol form was a great accomplishment and I thought I had made that clear.

 

[buck460XVR]

I think you took the word monstrosity and later monsters to have far more negative connotations to it than I intended. I used the word only in reference to the sheer size, weight, and ability of the firearm. They are a monster of a pistol and to me a 30-30 is more readily carried though that expectation is limited to not having fielded one for a day.

It was never intended to be ridicule. Getting the abilities of a 30-30 in pistol form was a great accomplishment and I thought I had made that clear.

Seems like in any of these threads that are about .460 or .500 magnums, it doesn't take long before the ol' "I may as well carry a rifle!" comment comes up. Every time. The other one is, "way overkill for deer!". Again, a comment generally given by rifle hunters, using an ought-six or similar platform. Used to get the same thing from rifle hunters back in the early 70s when compound bows first came out. "Why the heck you need one of those fancy azz things.....they should be illegal, they ain't a real bow!" Now those same guys are out there using compound crossbows. Seems some folks just feel a need to whiz in other folk's Cheerios, because they prefer Fruit Loops. If that was not your intention, then I'm sorry, I misunderstood.

While I don't have a 30-30, I do have my grandpa's ol .32 special I hunted with for years. My youngest son uses it sometimes deer hunting just for ships and giggles. In a tree stand, it is more cumbersome than my X-Frame.

Just sayin'.