S&W 1917: Production numbers: Commercial
- Thread starter Magyar
- Start date
Mike Irwin
Staff
"wasn't the commercial version of the 1917 called the 1950 Army?"
Post WW I commercial 1917s are fairly rare, but were produced in fits and spurts until 1946. The only way to tell for certain is the serial number, which will be all numbers.
After the war S&W bough some frames and parts back from the government and assembled a few thousand transitional guns, some of which may not have had the S prefix on the serial number. Once these were sold, the Model of 1950 was introduced.
Model of 1950 guns will have the S prefix on the serial number. Fewer than 4,000 of those were made.
Given the shape of the hammer spur, that one looks to be an earlier commercial variation. If it's original nickle from the factory it's worth a lot of money.
Post WW I commercial 1917s are fairly rare, but were produced in fits and spurts until 1946. The only way to tell for certain is the serial number, which will be all numbers.
After the war S&W bough some frames and parts back from the government and assembled a few thousand transitional guns, some of which may not have had the S prefix on the serial number. Once these were sold, the Model of 1950 was introduced.
Model of 1950 guns will have the S prefix on the serial number. Fewer than 4,000 of those were made.
Given the shape of the hammer spur, that one looks to be an earlier commercial variation. If it's original nickle from the factory it's worth a lot of money.
novus collectus
Moderator
Any ideas about where to get .45 auto rim bullets? Someone gave me an old box of ammo and I pulled the bullet on one. I want to duplicate the hollow base bullet or find replacements with a hollow base so that I can reload the brass in the same way the origional was. I want to do this because of nostalgia and I figure it would be the bullet designed for the 1917.
For that matter, is remington still manufacturing batches of auto rim?
For that matter, is remington still manufacturing batches of auto rim?
Mike Irwin
Staff
The original Peters loading for the Auto Rim cartridge was a full-metal-jacket .45 ACP bullet.
The hollow base bullet as likely simply an expedience by the ammo company that allowed them to use one bullet that would cover a multitude of bore sizes. On firing, the hollow base would expand into an oversized bore.
As for where you can get hollow-base .45 ACP bullets, beats me.
And no, Remington stopped production of the Auto Rim cartridge back in the early 1990s. You can, however, get the brass quite readily. I picked up 2 bags of 100 several years ago at a gun show.
I believe Starline is the only regular manufacturer of the brass these days.
The hollow base bullet as likely simply an expedience by the ammo company that allowed them to use one bullet that would cover a multitude of bore sizes. On firing, the hollow base would expand into an oversized bore.
As for where you can get hollow-base .45 ACP bullets, beats me.
And no, Remington stopped production of the Auto Rim cartridge back in the early 1990s. You can, however, get the brass quite readily. I picked up 2 bags of 100 several years ago at a gun show.
I believe Starline is the only regular manufacturer of the brass these days.
novus collectus
Moderator
Good to know that my gun was designed to shoot jacketed bullets. I was worried about the bore because it appears pristine and I was afraid of shooting copper jacket through it because the old box of auto rim that was given to me had lead bullets. Thanks for easing my mind.
Do you reload hotter than you would load .45 acp or lighter? What is the school of thought on shooting hot stuff in in the S&W 1917? And do you think I should slug my barrel before I choose a bullet diameter for reloading jacketed?
Do you reload hotter than you would load .45 acp or lighter? What is the school of thought on shooting hot stuff in in the S&W 1917? And do you think I should slug my barrel before I choose a bullet diameter for reloading jacketed?
Mike Irwin
Staff
I load the same.
The 1917 was designed to be used with military pressure ammo. Sure, it can probably take some degree of hotrodding, but why?
You're not going to get much in the way of leaps in performance with the short case.
The 1917 was designed to be used with military pressure ammo. Sure, it can probably take some degree of hotrodding, but why?
You're not going to get much in the way of leaps in performance with the short case.
novus collectus
Moderator
Thanks for the info and advice Mike.
randersonabq
New member
.45 auto rim
Georgia Arms sells .45 auto rim. Good stuff too
Georgia Arms sells .45 auto rim. Good stuff too
About 25 years ago, I saw an ad in the Shotgun news about a finish that could be used on guns..I believe it was called, Armaloy, but not too certain about the name. I disassembled it and sent it out..It is an industrial hard chrome plate finish...I like this better than the blued...As Mike Irwin mentioned, Remington stopped the auto rim production, and after that I used moon clips until Georgia Arms started their auto rim ammo. My serial # is a 178XXX..Not sure the year it was made..
45 Ar
The brass is available pretty reasonably from midwayusa.com . I had one several years ago (Pre Corban etc) and used both 45ACP w/1/2 moon clips, and 45 AR brass with no problems. You can even use 45ACP loads without clips as the chambers at least on the one I had were machined with the case rim stop point for headspace. Of course if you shoot 45ACP without clips you have to use a short piece of dowel to punch the fired brass out since there is no rim for the ejector star to catch on. Nice to know though that in a pinch you have a working gun even if you don't have the AR brass or clips.
The brass is available pretty reasonably from midwayusa.com . I had one several years ago (Pre Corban etc) and used both 45ACP w/1/2 moon clips, and 45 AR brass with no problems. You can even use 45ACP loads without clips as the chambers at least on the one I had were machined with the case rim stop point for headspace. Of course if you shoot 45ACP without clips you have to use a short piece of dowel to punch the fired brass out since there is no rim for the ejector star to catch on. Nice to know though that in a pinch you have a working gun even if you don't have the AR brass or clips.
novus collectus
Moderator
And I shot some of that old ammo Monday and it leaded up my bore with that soft malleable lead
Jacketed ammo or solid hard-cast lead from now on.Mike Irwin
Staff
"Hollow base bullets aren't necessarily made of "soft malleable lead"."
No, not at all. But when you're talking about old ammunition, especially in a caliber that has spanned the transition from blackpowder to smokeless, the chances of a hollow base bullet being dead soft to allow for bore obturation in oversized bores are virtually guaranteed.
Earlier on I theorized that whomever loaded these .45 ARs used bullets that could also be used in .45 Colt cartridges.
If you find any old .41 Long or Short Colt ammo made after about 1905 it will virtually always be the modern style single diameter bullet instead of the old style heeled type.
To make sure that the new style ammo would work in all of the old Colt Thunderer and 1889 (model?) revolvers the bullets are dead soft and have a huge hollow base.
No, not at all. But when you're talking about old ammunition, especially in a caliber that has spanned the transition from blackpowder to smokeless, the chances of a hollow base bullet being dead soft to allow for bore obturation in oversized bores are virtually guaranteed.
Earlier on I theorized that whomever loaded these .45 ARs used bullets that could also be used in .45 Colt cartridges.
If you find any old .41 Long or Short Colt ammo made after about 1905 it will virtually always be the modern style single diameter bullet instead of the old style heeled type.
To make sure that the new style ammo would work in all of the old Colt Thunderer and 1889 (model?) revolvers the bullets are dead soft and have a huge hollow base.
novus collectus
Moderator
Is the 1917 a S&W J,K,..or what frame, or is it a frame different from the letter designations? Be nice to put a more comfortable grip on it.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Novus,
The 1917 is an N frame.
Here's a link to an S&W frame size rundown I did years ago on this site.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9016&highlight=irwin+frame
My first message is number 6, but there are a lot of good bits of information in that entire thread. You would do well to read the entire thing.
The 1917 is an N frame.
Here's a link to an S&W frame size rundown I did years ago on this site.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9016&highlight=irwin+frame
My first message is number 6, but there are a lot of good bits of information in that entire thread. You would do well to read the entire thing.
novus collectus
Moderator
Thanks Mike. So, is the .44 military that same as the .44 special cartidge?
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Thanks Mike. So, is the .44 military that same as the .44 special cartidge?"
If I catch the drift of what you're asking... No.
The .44 Special was never called the .44 military.
The collective name for the FRAME was.
The same is true with the original K-frame revolves chambering the .38 Special.
The gun that became the Model 10 was originally known as the Military and Police.
If I catch the drift of what you're asking... No.
The .44 Special was never called the .44 military.
The collective name for the FRAME was.
The same is true with the original K-frame revolves chambering the .38 Special.
The gun that became the Model 10 was originally known as the Military and Police.
novus collectus
Moderator
Actually I should have asked this at the same time but...If they bored though the cylinder to accept the .45 acp, did they also change the barrel? Question seems moot and obvious now because, even if I wanted to have a second cylinder to fire another type of ammo, I would most likely change the barrel and I guess they don't make the .44 military anymore anyway.
(btw, did you ever find out if the model letter designation of the pre frame-letter designations was related to the telegraph? The thread ended there.)
(btw, did you ever find out if the model letter designation of the pre frame-letter designations was related to the telegraph? The thread ended there.)