Ruger NM single-action hammer/cylinder question

J

jmstr

New member
Hello,

I'm new to single-action revolvers. I just picked up a mid-'70s Single-Six, cleaned it up and am waiting for a range-day.

As I was cleaning it and preparing it for the range I noticed something that I didn't understand, so I thought I'd ask the collective for some insight.

First off, I am not new to firearms and have done sear/trigger work on many semi-autos. I have also really really smoothened out my GP100, SP101 and SRH in their single-action stage, while retaining a strong sear engagement. Passes the 'push-off' test on the hammer, etc.

So don't be afraid to be precise and/or technical in your explanations. If I don't get it, I'll ask. But I prefer detail to vague explanations.

The characteristic that I noticed is the manner in which the cylinder locks up as I pull the hammer back.

What I am seeing is that there are three 'clicks' as I cock it.

The first is at the very beginning of rearward motion [I think as the cylinder latch drops and the ratchet thingy pops down onto the next ledge to start moving up?].

The second will lock the hammer back at almost the rearward maximum of what you can pull the hammer. I can pull the hammer back very slowly and lock it on the sear at this stage.

However, the cylinder isn't locked into place. A slight pressure on the cylinder causes the cylinder to lock up.

If I pull the hammer ALL the way to the rear, I will pull it past the sear lock stage by a tenth inch or so and it will 'click' a third time. I then let the hammer loose and it stops on the sear.

After pulling the hammer all the way back, the cylinder is locked up and there is a third 'click'.

Here is the question: is this normal?

It happens with either cylinder installed.



I didn't notice it at first, as I was just pulling the hammer all the way back and it was staying on the sear at that stage. I thought I had heard a 'click' 'click-click' as I cocked it, but know nothing about how this is SUPPOSED to work.

slow-motion on the hammer revealed that the hammer went past the sear to lock the cylinder up, and then went forward to stop on the sear.


My experience with the da/sa versions of Rugers made me think that the cylinder lock up should happen at the same time [if not before] the hammer locks onto the sear.

Can someone clarify this for me please?

thank you!
 
Sear and cylinder should lock at the same time...

If I am following what you are saying, it should not require overtravel of the hammer to turn the cylinder to the locked position...
 
Are you certain it is a "New Model" Single Six?

Because mine doesn't work like you describe yours...

The "New Model" Rugers began in 73, when Ruger incorporated a new design of lockwork (as a result of a lawsuit settlement). New Model guns say "New Model" on the frame, left side, below the cylinder window.

It gets a bit confusing, because, as a result of the same settlement, ALL "old model" Rugers that get returned to the factory, for any reason, are converted to the "new model" style lockwork.

If the gun does not say "New Model" on it, it may be a converted old model. IF so, I can't help you, as I have never had one of those.

My New Model does have 3 clicks, but not the way you describe. The first click (very soft, barely audible) is when the hammer moves back, with the hammer nose clearing the frame by about 1/4".

The second click is much louder, plainly heard, when the hammer is in the approximate half cock position.

The third click is a loud clunk when the hammer reached full cock, and there is only maybe a tenth of an inch or so that the hammer can be pulled back past full cock, and no sound is made if you do this.

OK, by holding the gun to my ear, and starting with the cylinder properly indexed and locked, and by pulling the hammer back very slowly, I can hear 4 clicks. There is a very soft click, just before the louder click in the half cock position. Its more of a "ka-CLICK" at the half cock.

There is no half cock stand on a New Model, if you release the hammer when you hear the ka-CLICK at the half cock position, the hammer will drop right back down.

Hope this helps...
 
Thanks for the info and tips.

Pistol says 'new model' on it, and serial number puts it at 1974.

I am at work and can't confirm the sounds or follow suggestions about what to do to test until late tonight, but I appreciate the insights.

Right now, the 'kaKlick' sounds like the second sound, rather than a 'click' 'click'.

Well, my memory [faulty on good days] is nudging me to say the hammer sound when reaching the sear is more of a 'Klickka' than a 'kaKlick'.

Overtravel of the hammer is a good expression.

When I smoothly pull the hammer all the way back in one motion, I automatically take the hammer to the farthest back it can go and then the hammer goes forward a hint to rest on the sear.

When I do that, it really sounds more like 'klick' and then 'Klickka' [at the end of the hammer travel].

I didn't hear 3 distinct sounds until I REALLY REALLY slowed down the process.

I never pulled the hammer back to rest it on the sear, but pulled the hammer back all the way instead. When I do that [all the way], the cylinder is locked up and aligned as the hammer sits on the sear/trigger.

I'll do some more investigating and then probably take it to a good gunsmith around here to double check.
 
In the old single actions (e.g., Colt and Ruger, et al.) there are three notches in the hammer - the "safety notch", the half cock notch, and the full cock notch.

The first was intended to be used to carry the gun safely but if the hammer was struck a hard blow or the gun fell on the hammer, the trigger or notch could fail and the gun would still fire. The second notch freed the cylinder so it could be turned manually for loading/reloading. The third notch was full cock and was the position for firing. Colts and Colt clones still work that way.*

When the hammer is drawn back on those guns, there are four clicks: 1) the trigger (which is the sear) drops into the safety notch, 2) the trigger drops into the half cock notch, 3) the cylinder stop clicks against the cylinder as it rises, and 4) the trigger drops into the full cock notch. Some imaginative folks say the four clicks spell C-O-L-T.

But Ruger, in response to a law suit, redesigned their revolvers to use a transfer bar. That eliminated the need for a "safety notch" and is much safer. They also incorporated a clever system whereby the cylinder is freed for loading when the loading gate is opened. That eliminated the need for the half-cock notch. Both the safety and half-cock notches were eliminated as unnecessary.

So modern Ruger Single actions have only two clicks - 1) the cylinder stop rising and striking the cylinder, and the trigger dropping into the full cock notch. Sometimes a third click can be heard when the cylinder stop drops into the notch in the cylinder, but that sound is usually inaudible.

I believe Ruger began to use the New Model terminology for some of its single actions BEFORE the changeover to the transfer bar system, but I am not sure. I do know that it is impossible to safely convert a revolver with the transfer bar to the old system. Old guns that were changed to the new system at the factory can be converted back, and some owners have chosen to do so, but that does incur some risk if the gun is accidentally discharged.

Edited to add: Generally, the final "click" will be trigger dropping into the full cock notch. That should happen very close to the point at which the hammer reaches its fully back position. If there is a long distance between the full cock position and the full rear position, the sear or the hammer may have been damaged by dropping the cocked gun or by overzealous use of a stone or file on the trigger/sear. In either case, the gun should be checked by a good pistolsmith or returned to the factory. (Note that if an old-style gun is returned to the factory, they will convert it to the new style.)

Jim
 
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To simply answer your question, for a ruger, yes, that's normal. However, that is not how it is supposed to be. In a perfect world, the trigger nose drops into the full cock notch at the same time the bolt drops into the cylinder locking notch. Rugers are never timed right.
On a new model ruger, that is timed correctly, there would be 3 clicks. The first is as the bolt drops off the hammer and hits the cylinder. The second and third are the bolt dropping into the cylinder lock notch and the trigger nose dropping into the full cock notch, and they should happen at virtually the same time.
Colt revolvers, the ones not terribly worn at least, have 5 clicks. The first is the trigger nose dropping into the safety notch on the hammer. The second is the trigger nose dropping into the half cock notch on the hammer. The third is the locking bolt hitting the side of the cylinder as it slips off the hammer. The fourth and fifth are the locking bolt dropping into the cylinder locking notch and the trigger nose dropping into the hammer's full cock notch. Colts are usually timed so well the the fourth and fifth happen so closely they are hard to tell apart.
Often, the hammer will not go back far enough to hit the back strap, as the hand has the cylinder bottomed out against the locking bolt. Heavy use wears the hand and bolt, or the notch in the frame until the hammer will go all the way back.
 
I should add that on colts the locking bolt, if timed correctly, drops into the small "lead in" that is cut next to the locking notch. Rugers drop about halfway between notches, or just past halfway. This is why Rugers have drag marks between the locking notches, and colts do not.
 
Howdy

What you describe is very common. No, it is not ideal, but it is very common with single action revolvers, and not just Rugers.

Here's the deal. Ideally, the bolt (or cylinder stop as Ruger likes to call it) should pop up into a locking slot on the cylinder at the exact same moment as the hammer goes to full cock. In actuality, when you cock the hammer, you usually do so with enough force that you pull the hammer all the way back until it stops against the fame. Nobody shoots a single action revolver listening for the clicks. So a hammer that has a little bit of over travel to go to battery is no problem in practical terms.

Yes, ideally the hammer should go to full cock at exactly the same moment that the cylinder locks up. But think of the alternative for a moment. When the cylinder locks up, it jams the hand (or pawl) in place. Since the hand pivots on the hammer, once the cylinder locks up the hammer cannot rotate back anymore. So in a badly timed gun, if the cylinder locks up just a teeny bit early, the hammer cannot ever get all the way to full cock.

I have a Ruger Vaquero that came from the factory extremely tightly timed. The hammer went to full cock at the exact same instant that the cylinder locked up. When I changed the hammer out for an after market hammer, there was just enough difference in the hammers that the new one could not go all the way to full cock. That tightly timed hand was jammed, and preventing the hammer from rocking back the last teeny bit to full cock. I had to remove a teeny bit of metal from the hand to allow the hammer to go all the way to full cock. It still is timed so that the hammer cocks at the same moment the cylinder locks up.

My point is, in the real world, it is better if the hammer still rocks back just a tad past full cock before the cylinder locks up. The alternative is a gun that will not go to full cock. Perfect is nice, but since it takes a good tug to cock the hammer, it is really no problem if the hammer has to go back a teeny bit more to lock up the cylinder.

By the way, I have bunches of single action revolvers. Rugers, Colts and clones. Modern replicas and antiques. That Ruger is the only one of the entire bunch that locks up the cylinder at the exact same instant as the hammer goes to full cock.
 
Four clicks on non-transfer bar single-six's

Sear and cylinder should lock at the same time...
Click to expand...
It may but often don't and that's fine. The cylinder should lock up before the hammer is fully cocked. That to me, is good timing. The older Single-sixes as well as the older Colts, have four distinct clicks. They really sound kind of neat. The new single-Six's, should only have three distinct clicks. ..... ;)

Be Safe !!!
 
Hmm...

I have only been exposed to about a half dozen Ruger New Model SA's over the decades, and I only own two presently, so my experience may be limited...

But (there's always a but)...

My guns have two clicks, and cylinder locks exactly when the sear locks...

Overtravel of the hammer is possible on my guns, but is not necessary in order to continue rotating the cylinder...

If the cylinder on the OP's gun locked before the hammer on the sear, then I'd say go shoot it and don't worry...

But this is exactly the opposite of that, and the cylinder is locking late...

I'd contact Ruger...
 
The cylinder should lock up before the hammer is fully cocked. That to me, is good timing.
Click to expand...

Read my post again. If the cylinder locks up before the hammer goes to full cock, the hand will jam and prevent the hammer from ever going back far enough to reach full cock. You may get away with it if the cylinder locks just a teeny bit before full cock because of slop at the hand pivot and the hole it fits in the hammer.

That is exactly what happened with the very tightly timed Ruger I have when I put an after market hammer in it. The cylinder locked and jammed the pawl, which would not allow the hammer to rotate back to full cock. A couple of licks on the pawl with a file fixed it, but that was the story.

Ideally, the cylinder should go to battery at exactly the same time as the hammer goes to full cock. Locking the cylinder before full cock is asking for trouble. Locking the cylinder a tad after the hammer goes to full cock is not a problem for the reasons I have already stated.
 
Ideally, in a conventional SA (Colt & clones), the bolt should drop into the cylinder notch just as the hammer stops on the backstrap, by which point the full cock notch should be past the sear. The idea is that by having the hammer stop just as the bolt drops into the notch, wear on the hand and strain on the bolt are minimized. If the bolt drops first, the leverage of the hammer will force the cylinder against the bolt, battering both the cylinder notch and the bolt, as well as causing wear and strain on the hand. If, on the other hand, the bolt does not drop before the hammer contacts the backstrap, the cylinder can fail to carry up and the revolver could fire without the cylinder being locked.

Jim
 
Ideally, in a conventional SA (Colt & clones), the bolt should drop into the cylinder notch just as the hammer stops on the backstrap, by which point the full cock notch should be past the sear. The idea is that by having the hammer stop just as the bolt drops into the notch, wear on the hand and strain on the bolt are minimized. If the bolt drops first, the leverage of the hammer will force the cylinder against the bolt, battering both the cylinder notch and the bolt, as well as causing wear and strain on the hand. If, on the other hand, the bolt does not drop before the hammer contacts the backstrap, the cylinder can fail to carry up and the revolver could fire without the cylinder being locked.
Click to expand...


Hmmm.

Sounds like mine is fine as is then. Cylinder may lock up after hammer/trigger [sear] lock is able to be set, but it is before hammer reaches backstrap: so no undue wear on the hand/pawl and cylinder.



Am I right in thinking that the setup you identify above is best for people who want to be able to just yank the hammer back forcefully without thought until it stops, and then set the hammer on the trigger/sear interface?

That fits me.

I am not going to be gently searching for the minimum I can bring the hammer back to lock everything up. I intend to just thumb it back all the way and let it set on the trigger/sear.

So, maybe nothing needs to be done.



Thanks again to ALL of you for helping me understand the varied aspects of the revolver action.

Until now I had not tried to understand Revolver function much: just used them. I had done extensive self-education about hammer/trigger/sear fit for 1911s, BHPs, M&P [Apex kit], Mark II, BabyEagle, Walther P1/P38: but nothing for revolvers.

Now that the others are set up the way I want, it is time to fine-tune the revolvers also.

All of your posts have helped me understand what I want/need from the action and prevented me from fixing what wasn't broken!
 
Am I right in thinking that the setup you identify above is best for people who want to be able to just yank the hammer back forcefully without thought until it stops, and then set the hammer on the trigger/sear interface?
Click to expand...

Yes.

Like I said before, nobody listens to the clicks when they cock the hammer of a single action while shooting it. You don't 'yank the hammer back forcefully without thought until it stops', you just pull the hammer all the way back and then pull the trigger. Don't overthink it.
 
Don't overthink it.
Click to expand...

My wife would say I can't help it. ;)

Thank you.

I'll leave well enough alone. It worked fine with .22lr. Next trip will try .22mag. Looking forward to a new caliber!
 
Jesus.
I actually do action work for others, and some of this is so wrong.
You do not want cylinder lockup before hammer reaches full cock.
You do now want.an excessive amount of travel after the hammer reaches full cock, but before cylinder lockup.
A small amount is technically wrong, but ok in a practical sense.
Where this becomes a problem is when the shooter pulls the hammer back slowly, being given target shooting, as opposed to fast or action shooting.
The round could be fired not fully lined up with the bore. The minimum is lost accuracy, the maximum the gun grenades.
 
If you really get into it, the correct timing is with lock up and full cock happening simultaneously (per Colt factory). The 4th click in a Colt/clone is that. (There shouldn't be 5 clicks). The back strap is not an action stop. Most won't make it all the way back to the strap. DJ is correct about lock up not happening before full cock (I call it a wreck!). In a perfect world (which happens if you spend some time), at lock up, there shouldn't be any contact between the hand and the ratchet (huh?).
The whole sequence of events is determined by the full cock notch/trigger engagement (per Colt factory). Everything has to happen by then (whether the back strap is reached or not). This is why I put stops in all my S.A.s as well as all my customers.
 
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"The back strap is not an action stop."

It should be. The backstrap is the only thing* that can solidly stop the hammer without putting strain or excessive force on the hand, ratchet, bolt and cylinder notches.

In Swayze's book on the 1851 Colt, he is puzzled by the different depths of the cut in the backstrap, wondering if there is some model difference. In fact, that was the result of Colt's factory fitter timing the guns.

*I am referring to standard or normal SA's, not guns worked over to provide another stop or with other action modifications.

Jim
 
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