Ruger LCP, Kel-Tec P3AT, and S&W 442

C

CDW4ME

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Got a Ruger LCP; took it and shot about 70 rounds with it straight out of the box, with the exception of adding a little rubber grip enhancer.
I shot 30 rounds of Win. ball, 30 HydraShocks, and 10 Winchester SXT. No problems.

First thing I did after cleaning the pistol was add a little sight paint to the front sight, it's hard for me to see black on black.

I thought it would be interesting to compare performance over the chrono with my Kel-Tec P3AT and Mag-na-ported S&W 442.
Speed given is the average for 5 shots, chrono about 3 ft. from muzzle.

Ruger LCP:
Hydra Shock 90 gr. 878 FPS / 154# KE
Winchester SXT 95 gr. 774 FPs / 126# KE

Kel-Tec P3AT:
Hydra Shok 90 gr. 833 FPS / 139# KE
Winchester SXT 95 gr. 738 / 115# KE

Mag-na-ported S&W 442: (non plus p)
Winchester Silvertip 110 gr. 821 FPS / 165# KE
Remington 110 gr. SJHP 779 FPS / 148# KE

I noticed the Ruger 380 with Fed. HS basically produces the same power as the ported .38 shooting standard velocity ammo.

The Kel-Tec has registered higher velocities with the same ammo in the past, 845 FPS with the HS and 773 FPS with the SXT, but today the Ruger shot faster under the same conditions.
 
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The chronograph does not tell all. The jello is better. Decades of real world experience are even better. The snubnose .38 is unbeatable among pocket guns. It's the big fish in that small pond.
 
The chronograph does not tell all. The jello is better. Decades of real world experience are even better. The snubnose .38 is unbeatable among pocket guns. It's the big fish in that small pond.

I agree. I wish I had some ballistic gelatin; since I didn't I thought some chrono data was better than nothing. (Hey, look at my new Ruger LCP would have been boring)

In real world shootings the 380 has typically worked as well as the 38 snub according to the book Street Stoppers by Evan Marshall. The author collected data on acutal shooting an compiled the data by caliber. Both of the calibers have one or more specific loads that have been used in over 100 actual shootings. Based on more than a couple hundered collective shootings the 380 and 38 snub deliver about the same street results. With a torso hit and good load selection (hollowpoint 380 / hollowpoint +p in the .38) they are both generally 65-70% effective with one torso hit.

The small fish can be concealed and carried in my jeans pocket, the big fish can't.
 
The small fish is called a PARANA. It will hurt you .It is not the size but the bite.:DSomething is better than nothing.
 
In real world shootings the 380 has typically worked as well as the 38 snub according to the book Street Stoppers by Evan Marshall.
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Yes. Actually, blanks will work about as well as real bullets most of the time. Clean misses are generally as effective as torso hits. No doubt about it.


But that's a slightly different issue. Stopping power is 99% psychological and handgun cartridges are not very good at mechanically incapacitating humans.


But I'm figuring that into my calculus. Even with blanks and clean misses, the snubnose is better than the mousegun. Why? It looks like business. According to LEOs who've posted on this and similar BBs, cops have whipped out P-3 backups and have had BGs ask them, "Is that a real gun?" The real gun question could perhpas be answered by firing the gun, but the fact that thugs ask the question points out a problem. But nobody ever saw five LSWCHPs staring at them from the front of a snubnose .38 and wondered if it were a real gun.
 
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Maybe I'm wrong but I would like to know of an actual situation where a police officer pulled a backup gun and was asked by a BG if it was a real gun?
This seems very unlikely to me. Im guessing if a police officer has had to resort to pulling a back up weapon the s**t has hit the fan, and the BG wont be thinking to ask an officer if it is a real gun?
 
Maybe I'm wrong but I would like to know of an actual situation where a police officer pulled a backup gun and was asked by a BG if it was a real gun?
This seems very unlikely to me. Im guessing if a police officer has had to resort to pulling a back up weapon the s**t has hit the fan, and the BG wont be thinking to ask an officer if it is a real gun?
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There's a moderator on one of these BBs who uses the name Pax. I think I got that from her. Of course, I'll believe anything.


This may have been what I was thinking of: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=2025230&highlight=P32#post2025230


Not exactly the right wording, but the right general idea. People may not take your little plastic doo-dad seriously.
 
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Maybe I'm wrong but I would like to know of an actual situation where a police officer pulled a backup gun and was asked by a BG if it was a real gun?
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Well, I don't think you're wrong at all. As a retired le, I've had a few occasions to hold a gun on a person but, more importantly, I've had the benefit of personal discussions with many other les regarding their respective experiences on holding a gun on someone and training sessions that addressed the same issue(s). I don't know where folks pick up and spread these rumors and bad advice (internet lore?) but when it comes to how people react and interact to confronting a gun being brought to bear and/ or pointed at them, here are some facts as I have come to understand them:

(1) BGs don't peer into the chambers of revolvers to determine if they are loaded or not;

(2) BGs don't respond one way or another to the size of the hole in the barrel of a gun;

(3) BGs don't soil their pants and flee upon hearing the racking of a pump shotgun chambering a round;

(4) and BGs don't examine their chest area to see if a red dot is dancing around on it.

In short, most people, be they bad guys or good guys, don't have the time or presence of mind during an armed confrontation or a gunfight to determine how "business-like" their adversary's weapon is or isn't. Keep in mind that more than a few of the miscreants you might be facing off against will be high on some kind of mind-altering drug making it impossible for them to make rational, sane decisions.Short of a howitzer, it would be a huge mistake for anybody to count on "the other guy" to respond in one way or another to the make, model, caliber, gauge, type or size of any gun you bring to the showdown.
 
In short, most people, be they bad guys or good guys, don't have the time or presence of mind during an armed confrontation or a gunfight to determine how "business-like" their adversary's weapon is or isn't. Keep in mind that more than a few of the miscreants you might be facing off against will be high on some kind of mind-altering drug making it impossible for them to make rational, sane decisions.Short of a howitzer, it would be a huge mistake for anybody to count on "the other guy" to respond in one way or another to the make, model, caliber, gauge, type or size of any gun you bring to the showdown.
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OK. So, what's your conclusion? Does it matter what you carry? Are they all equal?
 
LightningJoe ~

I don't believe I ever suggested, anywhere, that cops pulling out backup guns had that problem. The post you linked to was me making fun of the idea that the "primary means of incapacitation" when using a handgun is simply the fear the bad guy experiences. It's not. Sometimes a BG might run away at the sight of the gun, but that's not the way to bet.

pax
 
Sorry lightning joe, I didnt mean to turn everyone against you, I was just curious if anyone actually had an experience with that situation. Thanks for everyones comments though.
 
LightningJoe ~

I don't believe I ever suggested, anywhere, that cops pulling out backup guns had that problem. The post you linked to was me making fun of the idea that the "primary means of incapacitation" when using a handgun is simply the fear the bad guy experiences. It's not. Sometimes a BG might run away at the sight of the gun, but that's not the way to bet.

pax
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I didn't remember your post word-for-word. It's been years. I just remembered you had said that the P32 might not be taken seriously based on its appearance. And I had to agree. Which is the main reason why I don't carry a P32 anymore. Your reasoning seemed sound.


As for my original point years ago about the incapacitation mechanism for handguns being mainly fear, I've improved my hypothesis. I now maintain that the main incapacitation mechanisms are fear and demoralization. I don't think handguns often produce mechanical incapacitation, especially not quickly enough to stop an attack. I think that when handguns work, they produce "incapacitation" for psychological reasons.


And it's impressive how often they do work. The psychology of handguns is very powerful.
 
I think that when handguns work, they produce "incapacitation" for psychological reasons.
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You're kidding, right? :rolleyes: If you are seriously counting on a bg to be "psyched out" at the mere sight of your gun, you might as well retire your sidearm for carry purposes and start toting a couple bunches of poison ivy (concealed, of course) to scare your enemy away. A well-placed bullet from almost any suitable handgun will not just demoralize an opponent-it will kill them.
 
OK. So, what's your conclusion? Does it matter what you carry? Are they all equal?
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Of course it matters. And all pistols aren't created equal. The problem is that the choice of a handgun for carrying concealed has to be tempered with the realities associated with carrying concealed and this almost always involves compromises. So the pistol with the biggest caliber holding the most bullets may well not be a practical choice when carrying concealed on Key West in August. The best advice, I suppose, would be to carry the most effective handgun that one's present circumstances (climate, social milieu, high risk environment, etc.) permit. And that choice will necessarily be different from one person to another and from one place, time and circumstance from another.
 
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You're kidding, right? If you are seriously counting on a bg to be "psyched out" at the mere sight of your gun, you might as well retire your sidearm for carry purposes and start toting a couple bunches of poison ivy (concealed, of course) to scare your enemy away.
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If you look at shooting statistics, it turns out that there is a psychological component to incapacitation. Not fear from the sight of the gun, but rather a fear of having been shot. It turns out that when people realize they have been shot, they nearly always fall down. Not because they've been incapacitated--sometimes they fall down because they THINK they've been shot when they haven't--but because that's what people think happens to people who've been shot.

It's not something a person should COUNT on, but it is a common response.
 
The chrono is interesting but...

I've got to go with what Clint Smith says, (Remember the first rule of gun fighting...) "have a gun."

I'll add, have a gun that you trust to function and one you shoot very well; regardless of caliber.
 
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