Ruby Ridge question

T

twoblink

New member
I'm listening on the radio today, and they say Ron something or other, I can't recall, the FBI sniper that shot Vicky Weaver and the child, might go on trial...

What I'm trying to find out is, do you know what standard issue the FBI snipers have?

(Caliber)
(Rifle, Maker, Model)
(Scope)
(Distance of shot)

The defense for him is pretty pathetic. He's going to claim he "accidentally" shot her, and that is because he's a lousy shot. Also, they said that through the scope, they can clearly see Randy Weaver had a shotgun. I'm assuming 12 gauge.

Assuming Randy had #7 buckshot, what's the max distance for a buckshot from a rifle? 100 yards maybe???

What I'm trying to figure out is this, I don't see how someone like an FBI sniper can say he was afraid of being shot by a retreating Randy, armed with a shotgun and more than likely buckshot instead of slug, if the sniper is probably sniping from something like 400-500 yards, and if he's a crack shot... It doesn't add up, but the defense is going to say that also, that Ron was "in danger" from the running boy, and a Randy who had a shotgun in hand, and the his back turned to the sniper...

Also, any ideas what the qualifying distance and MOA is for those snipers? I'm thinking something like 5 shots, 1", at 400 yards or something close to that. It has to be..

I was listening to the radio and getting really mad... These "reporters" who've never touched a gun were saying, "well, it might be possible to miss Randy by a foot, and _accidentally_ hit Vicky."

I don't think so...

Albert
 
His name s Ron Houriuchi but I don't know about the spelling or what rifle he was firing. I did read he is saying he was firing at Mr. Weaver to protect a helicopter that was nearby. I have great respect for real LEO's but this ploy sounds like a CYA move to me.
 
twoblink,

The snipers name was Ron (or Lon) Hariuchi, FWIW.

Also, although I don't have the exact specs, the usual Police sniper outfit is a Rem 700, .308 Winchester, factory Heavy BBl, Composite stock, and usually Leupold glass with variable power anywhere from 3.5 - 10x or in some cases even higher. This combination, if maintained and taken care of, will give (at the very least) 1 MOA accuracy.

Police snipers train at shorter distances then the Military. The usual distance is under 200 yards - and a lot of them train at 100 yards. I guess the rational is that in an urban setting, you won't usually see the longer distances.

They (snipers) are trained to shoot in such a way that they 'turn out the lights' with their shot. And although local procedures and situations will sometimes dictate otherwise - this is the kill shot that they practice for. In case you're wondering, it's the eye's that they aim for.

All snipers are trained to shoot from concealment. This is so that they (hopefully) can observe the target without giving themselves away, but also so that they don't make themselves a possible target. After all, what good is a sniper who's compromised his position?

Discovery channel, or was it History channel(?) recently had a show about snipers, and they went into detail about police sniper training. These cats with the LA County Sheriff were whacking a moving target in the kill zone regularly at about 100 yards. In this case they were aiming center mass. They were hitting that mannequin quite regularly.

Personally, I'd like to think that the FBI would really train the hell out of anyone that they tapped to be one of their snipers. To have someone as a FBI sniper who wasn't quite up to par would be really counter productive - and since the bureau is always image conscious... I just don't see that happening.

The speculation by the media that Hariuchi might have missed Weaver and hit his wife by mistake is balderdash. She was targeted and taken out. I defy any sniper to come up with evidence to the otherwise.

There were some rumblings back a while ago that alleged that Hariuchi was a rogue bull, or a lose cannon in that team. Can't remember where it was said, perhaps G. Gordon Liddy's site, maybe by the guru? Anyway, the feeling was that it was only a matter of time before he either defied his superiors by taking a shot at someone, or that someone actually turned him loose. Which ever, without proof this is all speculation, as we have no way of proving this one way or the other.

The bottom line is this, any other police sniper in the US wouldn't have made that shot (or mistake) It's my feelings that Vicki Weaver was deliberatly taken out, and if this so-called sniper can be brought to justice for his actions, then we all win.

My two cents worth!

Unkel Gilbey
 
I saw a pick of an FBI sniper with his rifle. I couldn't tell if it was a Remington or a Weatherby, but I was almost positive it was a 308 (very standard sniper round).

I guess the part I'm having trouble with is the same things you guys are, he tauts himself as a wicked eye'd sniper who was always dead-on, and so he's either going to now try to have us belive that he was a lousy shot that one day, or that Vicky (in the head) was not the intended target. What, he sneezed when he pulled the trigger??

I saw from one of the TV blurps, FBI sniper training.

AAA batteries on a 2x4 lined up, 10 of them, 10 shots from 100, then 150, then 200 yards. The guy got 29 out of 30. He actually didn't miss any, it was just that one of the shots knocked one of the adjacent batteries down, and that counts against him, because he nipped too low on the battery. That means 1/2 - 1/4th MOA doesn't it? That being the case, I don't see how they can make "unintentional shot" as a claim...

I'f I'm shooting 1/4th MOA all day long, and a bullet lands in the head of something, that's called INTENTIONAL in my book, no?

Albert
 
He testified at the Weaver murder trial that he was trained to hit a quarter at 100y.

Also, you may recall that the rules of engagement were changed for this particular encounter, agents were cleared to fire at any adult CARRYING a firearm.

This order was given after intel reports confirmed that ALL adults carried firearms AT ALL TIMES.

HMMMMM. Seems like a foregone conclusion.
 
His name is Lon Horiuchi, and he was a member of "the quarter club," a group of FBI snipers who could put all their rounds into a quarter at 200 yards. At the first trial, Horiuchi claimed he couldn't see Vicky Weaver through the door. Weaver's attorney, Jerry Spence, brought the actual door to the trial. It was a standard screen door.

Dick
 
Depending on the lighting, a standard screen door may appear opaque to the observer...........BUT, if he couldn't see; what the heck was he doing firing?

Sam
 
OK, I pick up a box of .22LR's and it says on it:

"Effective Range can be up to 1 mile! Please be aware of objects behind the intended target."

OK, if this is true for a box of .22LR's, then what about a 308??? What, Lon didn't know about the "effective distance" of a 308?? BS.

Yep, 5 rounds in a cluster @ 200 yards, where they take a quarter, and cover the hole, and no holes are showing from behind the quarter. That's what I was reading about, the "Quarter Club".

So what's that, .75" @ 200 yards, so roughly 1/8th MOA? He didn't see his target, the door was hard to see?

Leupold, did you hear that??? Someone wants a refund on his scope...

So let's just say he didn't see the screen door, so he's now not only a bad shot, but is not trained well enough to NOT shoot at something he can't see??

These excuses are getting worse by the minute..

Albert
 
The mentality of this and some other operations lost all law enforcement nature and was treated like a military operation. To them anybody downrange was an enemy and deserved to be shot. This has NO PLACE in law enforcement. This guy's action is without excuse.
 
Its been a long time coming for the hired FBI murderer to have his day in court. But why stop there---shouldn't everyone up the line face charges too???? After all---he was just the trigger man.
 
Couldn't the Justice Department charge the FBI under the Rico Statue. Like Rugerfreak said they have been operating a criminal enterprise. I can't belive he got indicted for manslaughter. Where I come from shooting a mother holding a baby would get you the death penalty. Book'em Danno
 
Just so those who may not know, under Idaho law, the county that brings the charge is bound to pay for the trial. Many times a county prosecuter will take the manslaughter charge over the charge of 1st degree murder for reasons of money. It cost a lot less to fight for a non-captial crime than to go for the big one. Not so much a political decision as it is a financial decision.

This is not to say I agree with it, it's just the way it is here.

Al.
 
There was an article in the paper, shortly after the Rubt Ridge shooting of Vicki Weaver. An FBI sharpshooter made the statement that Lon Horiuci was a cold blooded shooter, who literally never missed. He also stated that "H" was just itching for a chance to take some "felon" out. He was also considered to be a loner.
Hmmmm. Loner? Deadly shot? Sounds a bit like he was some kind of psycho to me. Maybe it's a miracle he only shot Mrs. Weaver, and not some school yard.
Manslaughter? Hell, five will get you ten he walks.
IMHO, Reno and Freeh should be on trial with him for aiding and abetting murder. But then, what to we the public really know? I just wish I could be on the jury. I'd even pay for the rope.
Paul B.
 
All this talk about rope this, rope that, people buying ropes, people selling ropes etc...

Whatever happened to good ol' piano wire??? I for one will donate my violin strings; you know how it is, sometimes, you have to take one for the cause.

There was rumors that this can set some precedence for people (family members) of the Waco group to file suits against the FBI for that batch job there.. I hope so.

If that's true, someone's going to have to donate an entire piano...

Of course I'm sure if it came down to if donating a piano will get these guys 25-life, then I'll go buy one right now..

Albert
 
I must be the only guy around who doesn't think Horiuchi should be charged.

He was aiming for someone else, hit the wrong person because they were all moving around.

He was there to shoot someone and he shot someone.


How about the people that ordered him to do it? The reason Weaver was entrapped, the manner, the stupid law under which he was entrapped, and the bother they went to to catch him?


Battler.
 
Battler, sorry to disagree, but if you were to shoot a bad guy in self defense when there were innocents nearby and you killed one of them instead, they'd have you up on charges in a New York minute.

This wasn't war, where "collateral damage" is expected. This was a civilian action, and it's no more justified than the fire-bombing of an entire block in Philadelphia to get at some black militants.

Dick
 
Monkeyleg:

I see your point.

I guess how I see it is that the woman who got shot was no more deserving of getting shot than the person the sniper was aiming at.

What was the sniper ordered to do - shoot at anyone with a gun (is having a gun a crime) who was aiding and abetting someone who had a shotgun 1/4" too short.

In some ways, the arguments I hear about him shooting the woman sound like shooting (whoever he WAS going after) was even a tad better.



Battler.
 
I think the more important point is that while Horiuchi may now stand trial, the folks who are really responsible will not. Horiuchi was the peon following orders. The person or person who wrote the rules of engagement is even more responsible. Of course, the agent in charge on scene claimed that HQ in DC set the rules of engagement. And the agent in charge in DC claimed that the agent in charge on scene set the rules of engagement. And neither of those two lying b*stards will ever be charged with anything...

M1911
 
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