Risk Management Advice to Physicians and Their Insurers: Don't Borrow Trouble

WAGCEVP

New member
If you haven't seen JPFO's alert RE: "Is Your Doctor a Spy?" Let me know.
The next two articles by the same Joe Horn are very good advice to Doctors.
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http://www.keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articlei
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Risk Management Advice to Physicians and Their Insurers: Don't Borrow Trouble


Date: 8/20/2000 4:33:00 PM
Written By: Joe Horn
Risk Management Advice to Physicians and their Insurers:
Don't Borrow Trouble

By Joe Horn

Since retiring and leaving Law Enforcement, I have been active in Risk
Management consulting, a field that has grown rapidly throughout every
industry over the past 20 years. Some of the companies I have consulted to
for risk management include IBM, Gates Lear jet, National Semiconductor, and
Pinkerton International Protection Services.

One of the best games in town is litigation, and litigating against
physicians is even more popular than suing gun manufacturers. Physicians and
their malpractice insurance carriers are well aware that litigators are
constantly looking for new opportunities to sue. Let's talk about one of
those new areas of exposure.

Nowadays, many physicians and other health care providers are engaging in
the very risky, well intentioned, but naive and politically inspired
business of asking their patients about ownership, maintenance and storage
of firearms in the home. Some could argue that this is a "boundary
violation," and it probably is, but there is another very valid reason why
these professionals should NOT engage in this practice -- MASSIVE LIABILITY.

Physicians are licensed and certified in the practice of medicine, the
treatment of illnesses and injuries, and in preventative activities. They
may advise or answer questions about those issues. However, when physicians
give advice about firearms safety in the home, without certification in that
field, and without physically INSPECTING that particular home and those
particular firearms, they are functioning outside the practice of medicine.
Furthermore, if they fail to review the gamut of safety issues in the home,
such as those relating to electricity, drains, disposals, compactors, garage
doors, driveway safety, pool safety, pool fence codes and special locks for
pool gates, auto safety, gas, broken glass, stored cleaning chemicals,
buckets, toilets, sharp objects, garden tools, home tools, power tools,
lawnmowers, lawn chemicals, scissors, needles, forks, knives, and on and on,
well, you get the drift. A litigator could easily accuse that physician of
being NEGLIGENT for not covering whichever one of those things that
ultimately led to the death or injury of a child or any one in the family or
even a visitor to the patient's home.

To engage in Home Safety Counseling without certification, license or formal
training in Risk Management and to concentrate on one small politically
correct area, i.e., firearms to the neglect of ALL of the other safety
issues in the modern home, is to invite a lawsuit because the safety
counselor Knew, Could have known or SHOULD have known that there were other
dangers to the occupants of that house more immediate than firearms. Things
like swimming pools, buckets of water, and chemicals in homes are involved
in the death or injury of many more children than accidental firearms
discharge [ Source: CDC.] Firearms are a statistically small, nearly
negligible fraction of the items involved in home injuries. Physicians
SHOULD know that. So, why all of a sudden do some physicians consider
themselves to be firearms safety experts? Where is their concern for all the
other safety issues that they DON'T cover with their patients?

Once physicians start down this path of home safety counseling, they are
completely on their own. A review of their medical malpractice insurance
will reveal that if they engage in an activity for which they are not
certified, the carrier will not cover them if (or when) they get sued.

Consider a physician asking the following questions of his or her
malpractice insurance carrier:

One of my patients is suing me for NOT warning them that furniture polish
was poisonous and their child drank it and died. I only warned them about
firearms, drugs and alcohol. Am I covered for counseling patients about
firearms safety while not mentioning and giving preventative advice about
all the other dangers in the home, and doing so without formal training or
certification in any aspect of home safety risk management? You know their
answer.

How much training and certification do I need to become a Home Safety Expert
Doctor? They will tell you that you are either a pediatrician or you are the
National Safety Council. But, you don't have certification to do the
National Safety Council's job for them.

Homeowners and parents are civilly or criminally responsible for the safety
or lack thereof in their homes. My advice to physicians is to not borrow
trouble by presuming to be able to dispense safety advice outside your area
of expertise: the practice of medicine. Your insurance carrier will love you
if you simply treat injuries and illnesses, dispense advice on how to care
for sick or injured persons, manage sanitation problems and try to prevent
disease, but stay out of the Risk Management business unless you are trained
and certified to do it.

(c) 2000

Joe Horn
6th Mesa Risk Management,
Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, Retired


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Joe Horn is a member of Second Amendment Police Department, who is now
collaborating and strategizing from time to time with Doctors for Sensible
Gun Laws.
 
Don't Borrow Trouble (part 2)

Last time we discussed the Risk Management issues involved in counseling
patients about firearms home safety and the liability issues involved
with lack of certification and training of Physicians in Home Safety or
Firearms Safety.

Now we'll discuss the very serious issues involving the lawful
possession and use of firearms in the home and advice to patients to
severely encumber the firearm(s) with locked storage or advising the
patient to remove them entirely.

Patient X is told by Doctor Y to remove or lock up a firearm so it is
not accessible. Patient X, does as counseled and has no firearm
available at closehand. Subsequently, patient is then the victim of a
home invasion and calls 911, but the police are buried in calls and
don't arrive for 20 minutes during which time Patient X is raped, robbed
and murdered. Anyone can see the liability issue here, particularly Risk
Management specialists and liability insurance carriers.

It's just a matter of when and not if this will happen, God forbid, but
it will.

Now, imagine what follows this horrendous event. Who is to blame? The
perpetrator is long gone, and even so, the Plaintiff's litigator will
state that the perpetrator could have been neutralized by the
appropriate defensive use of a firearm, which was no longer available to
the deceased/injured because he/she followed a Physician's advice to
render him/herself defenseless against violent crime.

The Litigator will further argue that the Physician Knew, Could have
known, Should have known that
removing a firearm from use for home defense would result in harm to the
patient if and when a crime was committed against the patient in the
home.

Physicians are already under incredible pressure from Liability and
Malpractice carriers to limit their exposure, and Malpractice rates are
staggeringly high. So, why borrow trouble?

If one acknowledges the already and dangerous general liability of home
safety counseling and then adds the very risky practice of advising
patients to disarm themselves in the face of the reality of violent
crime daily perpetrated against home owners and apartment tenants, it is
apparent that the Physician is placing him/herself in a very risky
position for suit.

It is my strong recommendation to Malpractice Carriers and those
Physicians they insure to strictly avoid this high risk practice and
reserve counseling for the area of expertise in which the are certified:
Medicine.
In my professional opinion, this is an emotionally charged political
issue that Physicians and their Carriers should not be manipulated for
what ever well-intentioned reason into taking the risk, which is
considerable......

Physicians in doubt of the veracity of what I've said are encouraged to
call their carriers and ask them what they currently cover, and to ask
if this new counseling policy is covered under the existing policy. We
already know what they will say: Don't borrow trouble.

Joe Horn,
Sixth Mesa Risk Management,
Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, Retired.
(c) 2000
Permission is granted to reproduce this article if left intact and
complete.
 
Only time I have ever had a physician bring up the subject was about a year ago at my son's 1-yr checkup.

Pediatrician: Do you have guns in the home?

Me: Yes, several

Pediatrician: Are they stored in such a way that the child cannot readily access them?

Me: Yes, locked up and unloaded (but where I can get at them in a hurry if necessary)

End of discussion. I viewed it simply as a doctor's concern for his patient. He did not push any agenda, and neither did I.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wade:
Only time I have ever had a physician bring up the subject was about a year ago at my son's 1-yr checkup.

Pediatrician: Do you have guns in the home?

Me: Yes, several

Pediatrician: Are they stored in such a way that the child cannot readily access them?

Me: Yes, locked up and unloaded (but where I can get at them in a hurry if necessary)

End of discussion. I viewed it simply as a doctor's concern for his patient. He did not push any agenda, and neither did I.
[/quote]


did you ask him what he was going to do with that information?

The question on my husband form was do you own guns? Number one , is it any body elses business WHAT you own? Would he ask do you own knives, swimming pools, ladders , poisons or any other dangerous item n your home? Why is he concerned just about guns?

2) My husband asked what would happen if he didn't asnwer. Drs Reply? "I'd have to turn it in as a yes". Turn it in? To whom?
Don't be so naive, before answering any questions you might want to find out why he wants to know and what he plans on doing with the info. Hey, If the pro gun DRS at DRGO http://www.KeepAndBearArms.com/DSGL

are worried about this , shouldn't YOU be?


:mad:
 
WAGCEVP, this particular doctor is an avid hunter, and these questions were asked just after "do you use a child safety seat in your vehicle?" So the questions were not just about guns, but about child safety in general.
 
Was asked to pass this on by DR Rogers, founder of DSGL:

soooo :D
Nancy forwarded:

<<Anti-self defense lobbyists have enlisted family-practice
physicians and pediatricians into collecting firearms ownership
data. Doctors have been receiving literature urging them to ask
their patients a lot of detailed questions about firearms
ownership.

We received a first-hand report from an ardent JPFO supporter
who recently underwent this very type of probing by his doctor.
During a physical examination in April 2000, as part of
obtaining a "medical history," the doctor asked the patient:

* Do you have any guns?
* If so, how many guns do you have?
* Where are they located?
* Where do you store the guns?
* How much ammunition do you keep? >>

Nancy, no physician can collect data for research or forwarding to ANY DATABASE without getting informed consent from the patient. That means: the patient must be informed what data is being recorded and who will see it and what will be done with it, and then they must sign a form releasing the physician to proceed.

Any physician doing that sort of thing WITHOUT informed consent from the patient is breaking all kinds of rules and laws. They may easily be sued for "breech of confidentiality."

PLease feel free to reprint this and/or forward it to ANY message boards anywhere. (and kindly include our DSGL url below)

Regards always,

W.Rogers, MD
Tyler, TX
Doctors For Sensible Gun Laws http://www.keepandbeararms.com/DSGL


FREE Web-Based email from Keep And Bear Arms!!! Sign Up for your FREE email account today and support the 2nd amendment. Go to http://mail.keepandbeararms.com
 
FYI.....

Here's some more pro 2A DRS sites

Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership (Dr. Wheeler's group):
http://www.claremont.org/1_drgo.cfm

Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research (Dr. Suter's group):
http://www.dipr.org/



------------------
When women are disarmed, a rapist will never hear - Stop or I'll shoot!
Armed Citizens SAVE Lives!
<A HREF="http://www.wagc.com
http://sites.netscape.net/wagcga/homepage

Gun" TARGET=_blank>http://www.wagc.com
http://sites.netscape.net/wagcga/homepage

Gun</A> Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a
woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound.

"Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentis telum
est" ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool in the killer's hands")
Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)
 
Say Ahhh!



Date: 8/31/2000 6:53:00 PM
Written By: Peter W. Wickham Jr.
Say Ahhh!

by Peter W. Wickham Jr.



"Now before I begin this exam, there are a few questions I have to ask so that I can better understand your medical history, okay?"

"Sure thing, Doc. Shoot."

"What did you say?"

"Shoot. Fire away. Go ahead. Ask your questions."

"Oh, okay then. Does or did anyone in your direct bloodline have a cancer or suffer from Diabetes, Rheumatoid Arthritis, or Hemophilia?"

"My grandmother developed Diabetes in her fifties but she didn't have to use insulin. That's about it for that question."

"Okay, do you smoke, and if so, how many packs do you go through a day?"

"Nope. Nada. Never picked up that habit."

"Good for you. Do you drink, and if so, how much?"

"One glass of champagne on New Year's Eve and that's it for the year, Doc."

"Very good. Now, do you own a gun?"

"What?!"

"Do you own a gun, and if so, how many do you own?"

"What has that got to do with my medical hist....?"

"Where do you store them?"

"Now Doc I don't think that's any of your busi..."

"How do you store your guns?"

"This is getting ridicu...."

"How much ammunition do you keep? These are legitimate medical questions you know."

Does this doctor seem out of line to you?

A similar scenario actually happened to a member of Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership. The patient refused to answer the questions and filed a complaint through the hospital against the doctor. The hospital never responded to the complaint, but the doctor dropped the patient like a hot potato (Guns & Ammo, Oct. 2000, p.57). Now just where did this silliness begin?

I believe it began when society began to "Medicalize" (neat term, huh?) a lot of conditions we used to call vices. The town drunk is no longer a person of low morals and weak constitution, now the poor fellow is a "victim" of the "disease" called Alcoholism and subsequently is in need of medical attention. The fool who gambles his paycheck away before he buys food for his family is not a fool anymore, he is a "victim" of a treatable "addiction." Disruptive, disorderly, and disobedient children are no longer considered brats, but are now "victims" of a condition called Attention Deficit Disorder and they are loaded down with a large number of mind-altering drugs. (Now I take a sidebar at this point, I have seen children who have a legitimate neurochemical imbalance in their brain that leaves them terribly excitable and my heart goes out to them and their parents as they deal with this situation, but too many children are falling under this umbrella who really need a swift whack to their buttocks; I believe the doctors are treating these children at the wrong end.)

Now a portion of society wants to consider the statistically small amount of gun violence we have in this country as a medical problem. One anti-gun organization calls itself "Sane Alternatives to the Firearms Epidemic," the name which Ari Armstrong, editor for "Freedom Report" writes, "...likens gun ownership to a disease." The Center for Disease Control has funded studies over the last few decades treating guns as a virus needing to be eradicated. Some of those studies have come up with those great junk science statistics such as "a firearm in the home is 43 times more likely to be used against a member of that household than an outside attacker" (if anyone really studies this "study" they will find those who were injured or killed were 43 times more likely to end up that way because they lived in the same house with a violent criminal rather than that they lived with a gun around). And this junk science is being filtered down to your family doctor through their respective medical associations so they can do their part to help win the battle of "gun disease."

And what are those frivolous lawsuits that many cities and the Federal government are bringing against the gun manufacturers after but to cover medical costs incurred by those entities because of the "raging fury of gun violence" (please note tone of sarcasm at this point) in this country? (Of course, they would never hold the person who actually pulled the trigger responsible for the medical expenses of his victim because he or she is a victim of some as yet unnamed disease.)

So what are you supposed to do when that man or woman you've trusted for years with your health and the health of your family begins to ask those intrusive questions? Well you can adamantly refuse to answer the questions as JPFO recommends. You can explain to your doctor that you consider these questions to be more political than medical. Or you can just agree between yourselves that your guns are safely stored and used and everyone in the house knows how to properly handle them and that's that. I might have a little bit more fun with my answers.

"Well, let's see, Doc. I've got that Thompson machine gun that Grandpa carried in W.W.II. Boy that thing really rattles when you fire it. And then there's that pump shotgun that Dad had. It's a twenty-gauge but you can accidentally slip a twelve-gauge shell into it. If you fire that baby, it will probably blow your hand clean off. Then there's that snubnose 5-shot .38 that Mom had that is a great gun for playing Russian Roulette with because there's a problem with the cylinder latch and it skips a chamber every once and a while. Sometimes you have to pull the trigger 25 times to fire all five shots. And I got several cases of ammo that reach up to my ceiling. Let's see, the ceiling is 7'8" and the cases are four inches thick, you got a calculator handy, Doc?"

Peter W. Wickham, Jr.
AKA The Ol' Grey Ghost


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Peter W. Wickham Jr. (AKA The Ol' Grey Ghost) is the Editor In Chief for Safestcrime.com. © Copyright 2000 http://www.safestcrime.com. All rights reserved. Visit our site to view our project showing states that are safe/unsafe to live in and why, at http://www.safestcrime.com/Safe.htm. Our goal is to have all 50 states done, and we welcome assistance for the states that are not yet done.

Visit Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws, an organization of doctors who take exception to gun-fearing doctors using their doctor/patient relationships to promote a non-doctor political agenda.
 
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