A recent post brought up the issue of an assault by a rogue cop, or a cop out of control and with mental problems. While I am sure this is rare it brings up the following issue; assuming you are respectful and follow the directions even by a police officer what would you do if for some reason known only to him ( again- he is having a bad day, mental problems , using drugs/alcohol on the job, doesn't like your race/color/etc, is a bully, is plain mean/evil, etc) he starts hitting you with a baton , flashlight or fist in the face? Again, what is key here is that you did nothing wrong. It seems to me he has just lost his LEO status and gained a criminal status. I might lose in court but one's first right is to self defense. Not all people survive head injuries. What would you do????
Right to defend yourself from rogue cop
- Thread starter skeeter
- Start date
Texas Law (PC 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE) says
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
(c) The use of force to resist an arrest or search is justified:
(1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary [/quote]
although I do not personally know of a case where this has been tested.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
(c) The use of force to resist an arrest or search is justified:
(1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary [/quote]
although I do not personally know of a case where this has been tested.
MP Freeman
New member
Hope I'm not flaming but...
This sounds kinda like Ruby Ridge. Didn't the Weaver boy shoot a LEO?
I'm not for unjustified shootings either, but this particular case, you refer to with the rogue cop, would probably be found as a justified shooting in a jury trial. Depending on who is in the jury box. But I'm far from being any legal expert or even novice.
This sounds kinda like Ruby Ridge. Didn't the Weaver boy shoot a LEO?
I'm not for unjustified shootings either, but this particular case, you refer to with the rogue cop, would probably be found as a justified shooting in a jury trial. Depending on who is in the jury box. But I'm far from being any legal expert or even novice.
At Ruby Ridge the cop shot the boys dog. That broke the rules of the South! Priorities in this order: 1.Never mess with a mans dog 2.Never mess with a mans pickup truck 3.Never mess with a mans wife. To answer your original question: You have the right to defend yourself from anyone in self defense or defense of property. This right superceeds any local,state or federal laws.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom B:
You have the right to defend yourself from anyone in self defense or defense of property. This right superceeds any local,state or federal laws.[/quote]
Defense of property is NOT recognized by law in Virginia as a reason for using deadly force. Can't speak to all places, but I know that to be the case here. Basically, if a guy breaks into your home and is stealing everything you have, as long as he doesn't threaten you or your family directly, then you can't do anything but call the cops.
Me? I fear for my life ANYTIME someone bursts into my home uninvited in the middle of the night. That's just common sense. I seriously doubt anyone doing that is trying to return that cup of sugar he borrowed the day before.
You have the right to defend yourself from anyone in self defense or defense of property. This right superceeds any local,state or federal laws.[/quote]
Defense of property is NOT recognized by law in Virginia as a reason for using deadly force. Can't speak to all places, but I know that to be the case here. Basically, if a guy breaks into your home and is stealing everything you have, as long as he doesn't threaten you or your family directly, then you can't do anything but call the cops.
Me? I fear for my life ANYTIME someone bursts into my home uninvited in the middle of the night. That's just common sense. I seriously doubt anyone doing that is trying to return that cup of sugar he borrowed the day before.
Such situations are a good excuse to travel with a carload of fellow CCWers. Near here a highway patrolman pulled a guy out of a car on suspicion of being somebody else(there was a guy going around running people off the road that night in a similar car). His friends that had been following him at the time pulled off the road about 75 yards ahead, and came and chased the cop off at gunpoint. The LEO reported them and other LEOs came to their house later and arrested them. After reviewing the camera in the officer's car they were released as it was quite obvious on the tape that the patrolman had become quite violent with his suspect with absolutely no justification. There was no reprimand for the officer, and no word of it ever hit the press, and with the exception of a few locals familiar with the people and officers involved, few know about it. Stuff like that just doesn't make it mainstream. Yes, police have been detered from crime by armed citizens. I do also know of a couple cases during the late 70s/early 80s where farmers were getting screwed over by the government and debt collectors, and the police were often dispatched to force people off their land. While just following orders, many of these cases were quite clearly exercises in tyranny, and in several cases officers were unable to evict some farmers who had armed themselves heavily and were prepared to defend their family land. Several of these farmers later had their problems solved in court, while most that simply complied never even got time in court to state their claims. I know that's a bit out of the realm of the original post, but I think it does apply to the general topic at hand.
In summary, yes there are times when a cop deserves a good thrashing or even being fired upon, but generally once they've got you by yourself just standing there you're best relying on outside help.
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I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist
The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
In summary, yes there are times when a cop deserves a good thrashing or even being fired upon, but generally once they've got you by yourself just standing there you're best relying on outside help.
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I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist
The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
Apple a Day
New member
Bob,
I am a Virginia resident as well. I could be wrong but I think there is a recent provision here that says if a BG enters your home then you are allowed to shoot, no if, ands, or buts because you would have to assume that someone breaking into your home would be considered 'hostile'. You'll have to check on that, though.
An LEO who shall remain nameless once remarked that the smartest way to avoid such problems is to kill the intruder and then make sure to mention to the investigating officer(s) that he threatened to kill you. I am not suggesting that you should lie but dead men can't argue.
I seem to remember a case where a navy guy broke into the home of a fellow suitor for a woman. The other competitor was a SEAL, who promptly put 8 rounds into the intruder. The family of the dead man made a stink about the SEAL shooting their poor baby so many times and whether he had actually crossed the threshold of the door or not. As it turns out the intruder brought a gun with him so the argument was moot. No charges filed and no civil suite. My memory may be faulty but I seem to recall it as such.
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Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the rules.Thus they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
I am a Virginia resident as well. I could be wrong but I think there is a recent provision here that says if a BG enters your home then you are allowed to shoot, no if, ands, or buts because you would have to assume that someone breaking into your home would be considered 'hostile'. You'll have to check on that, though.
An LEO who shall remain nameless once remarked that the smartest way to avoid such problems is to kill the intruder and then make sure to mention to the investigating officer(s) that he threatened to kill you. I am not suggesting that you should lie but dead men can't argue.
I seem to remember a case where a navy guy broke into the home of a fellow suitor for a woman. The other competitor was a SEAL, who promptly put 8 rounds into the intruder. The family of the dead man made a stink about the SEAL shooting their poor baby so many times and whether he had actually crossed the threshold of the door or not. As it turns out the intruder brought a gun with him so the argument was moot. No charges filed and no civil suite. My memory may be faulty but I seem to recall it as such.
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Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the rules.Thus they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Thank God I live in Texas. I remember that day of lecture and the shock of everyone in the class when we found out that we had the right to even defend against a officer of the law. We joked about it, and to be honest you don't think about it, (and I don't know if I could, something about uniformed athority,) but it is nice to know it is there.
There was a case (excuse me for not remembering the details precisely) that went something like this.
A real criminal was being arrested. He was being beaten by the officers and feared for his life. He managed to get an officer's gun during the course of the beating and shot them. He then went to their car and shot an unarmed person who was along with them on a ride with a cop program. He said that he thought the person was a cop who would kill him for his actions.
The jury let him go. Of course, this was very controversial with race of the guy, the jurors, cops, who did and said what. They bought his claim that he was being beaten to death or severely injured.
If someone has more details - I might have it slightly off.
A real criminal was being arrested. He was being beaten by the officers and feared for his life. He managed to get an officer's gun during the course of the beating and shot them. He then went to their car and shot an unarmed person who was along with them on a ride with a cop program. He said that he thought the person was a cop who would kill him for his actions.
The jury let him go. Of course, this was very controversial with race of the guy, the jurors, cops, who did and said what. They bought his claim that he was being beaten to death or severely injured.
If someone has more details - I might have it slightly off.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Apple a Day: ... if a BG enters your home then you are allowed to shoot, no if, ands, or buts because you would have to assume that someone breaking into your home would be considered 'hostile' ... [/quote]If an uninvited guest forcefully enters your home, it would be reasonable to assume that he means you harm and you would be justified in using deadly force to defend yourself. After all, I'm sure that he just didn't come in to get out of the rain. 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andrewh:
Thank God I live in Texas. I remember that day of lecture and the shock of everyone in the class when we found out that we had the right to even defend against a officer of the law. We joked about it, and to be honest you don't think about it, (and I don't know if I could, something about uniformed athority,) but it is nice to know it is there.[/quote]
I have put grave looks on some peace officers, even angered some when I suggested that if someone who witnessed the LAPD beating of Rodney King, believed the officers were murdering King, might well have been acquitted if he/she had shot the officers believing it was necessary to save King's live.
Thank God I live in Texas. I remember that day of lecture and the shock of everyone in the class when we found out that we had the right to even defend against a officer of the law. We joked about it, and to be honest you don't think about it, (and I don't know if I could, something about uniformed athority,) but it is nice to know it is there.[/quote]
I have put grave looks on some peace officers, even angered some when I suggested that if someone who witnessed the LAPD beating of Rodney King, believed the officers were murdering King, might well have been acquitted if he/she had shot the officers believing it was necessary to save King's live.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If an uninvited guest forcefully enters your home, it would be reasonable to assume that he means you harm[/quote]
I disagree. I know of at least 3 cases where people have been killed by homeowners when they had a legitimate excuse to enter the home, and not all killings were with firearms, one was with a baseball bat.
First case, a friend of the homeowner was helping the homeowner, who had been incapacitated. He couldn't get the homeowners 8 year old to open the door, so he came in through the window, the kid had a shotgun and killed him (never ever let an 8 year old have a gun with absolutely no training and supervision).
Second case, a young woman was breaking into a house because she was being chased by someone. The homeowner shot her, and it passed through her and hit the BG outside. She lived, but was crippled for quite some time, the BG died at the scene.
A couple homeless guys broke into what they believed to be an abandoned building and one was shot to death without any warning.
Someone breaching your property is absolutely no justification for killing, only displays of violence, such as ransacking of the home, or assault of some sort should warrant a killing or maiming. I strongly suggest that everyone here study extensively the Navy SEAL's training course for "shoot, don't shoot" when regarding hostage rescues. They are extremely well trained for not shooting friendlies or neutral targets. Watch them do a cover fire withdraw sometime, they walk right in front of other SEALs who are firing, because the other SEALs will not fire as their friendlies pass in front of them. That sort of discipline is what every one of us should hope for regarding home defense.
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I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist
The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
I disagree. I know of at least 3 cases where people have been killed by homeowners when they had a legitimate excuse to enter the home, and not all killings were with firearms, one was with a baseball bat.
First case, a friend of the homeowner was helping the homeowner, who had been incapacitated. He couldn't get the homeowners 8 year old to open the door, so he came in through the window, the kid had a shotgun and killed him (never ever let an 8 year old have a gun with absolutely no training and supervision).
Second case, a young woman was breaking into a house because she was being chased by someone. The homeowner shot her, and it passed through her and hit the BG outside. She lived, but was crippled for quite some time, the BG died at the scene.
A couple homeless guys broke into what they believed to be an abandoned building and one was shot to death without any warning.
Someone breaching your property is absolutely no justification for killing, only displays of violence, such as ransacking of the home, or assault of some sort should warrant a killing or maiming. I strongly suggest that everyone here study extensively the Navy SEAL's training course for "shoot, don't shoot" when regarding hostage rescues. They are extremely well trained for not shooting friendlies or neutral targets. Watch them do a cover fire withdraw sometime, they walk right in front of other SEALs who are firing, because the other SEALs will not fire as their friendlies pass in front of them. That sort of discipline is what every one of us should hope for regarding home defense.
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I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist
The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
P
PreserveFreedom
Guest
You would think that in states that allow private carry that some rogue cops would think twice.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EnochGale:
There was a case (excuse me for not remembering the details precisely) that went something like this.
A real criminal was being arrested. He was being beaten by the officers and feared for his life. He managed to get an officer's gun during the course of the beating and shot them. He then went to their car and shot an unarmed person who was along with them on a ride with a cop program. He said that he thought the person was a cop who would kill him for his actions.
The jury let him go. Of course, this was very controversial with race of the guy, the jurors, cops, who did and said what. They bought his claim that he was being beaten to death or severely injured.
If someone has more details - I might have it slightly off. [/quote]
I believe it was a San Diego, CA case..
Bruce
There was a case (excuse me for not remembering the details precisely) that went something like this.
A real criminal was being arrested. He was being beaten by the officers and feared for his life. He managed to get an officer's gun during the course of the beating and shot them. He then went to their car and shot an unarmed person who was along with them on a ride with a cop program. He said that he thought the person was a cop who would kill him for his actions.
The jury let him go. Of course, this was very controversial with race of the guy, the jurors, cops, who did and said what. They bought his claim that he was being beaten to death or severely injured.
If someone has more details - I might have it slightly off. [/quote]
I believe it was a San Diego, CA case..
Bruce
dangus it all depends on the state.AZ you can shoot anyone that breaks into your house.I am not saying not to use discrition and at least a little brain power when you are the situation but the justifaction is there.
Supreme court state od AZ verses ?.I had the paper and can't find it anymore. A marshal doing an arrest used excessive force and the person he was trying to arrest killed him.It went to the supreme and man was let off.The court called it self defense.If anyone finds this ruling I sure would like another copy.I think the man had an indian name if memory serves me correctly.
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Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
Supreme court state od AZ verses ?.I had the paper and can't find it anymore. A marshal doing an arrest used excessive force and the person he was trying to arrest killed him.It went to the supreme and man was let off.The court called it self defense.If anyone finds this ruling I sure would like another copy.I think the man had an indian name if memory serves me correctly.
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Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.