Rifling...cut or button?

Big Caliber

New member
What's the difference between button rifling & cut rifling in terms of barrel stress, accuracy(assuming a decent load & shooter), barrel fouling, and barrel life?...using 2 barrels of identical steel, caliber, length, twist, and contour?
 
A cut barrel is made by using hook shaped tool which is pulled through the bore while the barrel rotates. Each groove is cut one at a time. This was the method used back in the day by barrel makers like Harry Pope. I dont think many barrel makers are using this process now.

The button method is performed by pulling or pushing a carbide tool with the groves and pitch on through the bore. I believe most custom barrel makers use this method.

Another method the large rifle manufacturers use is the hammer forged method. This is where a billet of barrel steel is hammer over a mandrel containing the groves and lands of the caliber desired.

As far as accuracy is cocerned the cut method was always thought to be the most accurate back in old days. Now most target barrels are made by the button method.

A lot of factors beside the method use to rifle the barrel comes in to play. Truness of the hole in the barrel blank. Quality and grade of steel used.
Wear on the tool used to make the rifling. Lubes used to lube the tool when past through the bore. There are a hundred other things that effect accuracy.

Many bench rest shooters buy several barrelas and test them to see which shoots the best before using them in meets. Like Forrest Gump said barrels are like a box of chocalates you never know what your going to get.
 
Hart button rifles, Krieger cuts. There are other high quality barrels by both methods that sell steadily to demanding customers and shoot well in tough competition. I just don't think you can make a blanket statement that one method is better than the other.
 
bbl.

Sir:
The "cut rifled" barrel in my opinion is, in my mind, as nice as a "buttoned" one. To my mind, there is nothing as nice as a "cut rifled" bore! Yea, I know, the buttoned is smoother, possibly longer wearing (?). But there is nothing like wondering the field with an old 30-06 with a "cut rifled" bbl.
Nostalgic, YEA! The idea of some old guy rifling a muzzle-loading bbl. and you carrying that muzzle-loader on a days hunt, or your favorite rifle with a "cut-rifled" bbl. is very pleasing and calming to me. But, I do use buttoned barrels in all but my muzzle-loaders!
There is absolutely, positively NOTHING wrong with the lengthwise stirations left in a cut rifled barrel - witness Pope barrels and those made by Brock, and the other great barrel makers of the past. It took more work and craftmanship to "cut-rifle" a bbl. than a buttoned one anyway. I remember a 30 cal. cut rifled bbl. in old Dave Taylors shop hanging in the rafters of his shop and upon my asking him about it, "Son, that's a cut rifled barrel and Charlie Shaner has been trying to get it for years - I made that barrel myself!"
His pipe, the blue smoke, the olfactory odors that exuded from that old shop - the line shaftiong, all that I carry with me to this very day. There is a romance to cut rifled barrels that is gone today, now I am old and now know how these old guys felt!
Yes, I'm aware of the ironing action of a button that probably makes a better bbl. and I use them but, "Boy! If I could just locate that old grey "cut rifled" 30 cal barrel today."
I visited Dave in the local rest home (a mistake). There he was strapped to his wheel-chair - barely remembered me but when he did he said, "Bonar, we're opening up the shop next week and we're going to make barrels again." I said, "Yea, dave = I'll be down." Damn!
Harry B.:confused:
Harry B.
 
One problem with cut rifling is that unless the bore is carefully lapped or honed before rifling, the lands will have the marks of the bore reamer and they can retain fouling. You don't get that with button rifling as both lands and grooves will be compressed the same way and smoothed out.

Jim
 
Cut rifling does have a couple of advantages over the button method. First, you can literally produce any bore diameter you want using cut rifling. It's just a matter of letting the machine run longer or shorter. For those fans of the weird, off-the-wall calibers like 318 Westley-Richards or 11.2x72 Schuler (like me) this is the only way to get a barrel with the correct dimesions these days.

Secondly, cut rifling doesn't stress the tube as much as button rifling. Proper lapping and stress relief procedures go a long ways these days so this is not as big an issue. Cut rifling does take a lot longer time though.

Having said all this, I'm a big fan of Pac-Nor barrels and they use the button method. Nowadays, there are extremely well made barrels using both kinds of production.
 
Harry Bonar: Not to derail this thread at all. I sure can understand your post. I have a 91 yo father that is sort of in the same condition. I go through this every day with my father, who of course, doesn't have a clue to as who I am. I hope they find some cure for Alzheimers as it is such a sad disease to loose you mind and create memories that never existed in the first place.
 
What Jim Watson said.
I have both cut and button rifled barrels, and both shoot very well.
No blanket statement from me on which is best. Following centerfire benchrest shooting supports this position, as there a both type barrels being used by good shooters.
I think the most important thing is selecting a good barrel maker no matter what method of rifling he uses.

Martyn
 
Cut rifling looks just like button rifling. I have owned and shot some good Douglas and Nor Pac barrels which have proved hard to beat. I still like my Kreiger though.

The Kreiger makes no copper even after 88 rounds with 40 of the 88 rds. shot in rapid fire. I made a shooting buddy open a new jar of Hoppies copper remover just to prove it.
 
Hi, Pinotguy,

You wrote "First, you can literally produce any bore diameter you want using cut rifling."

I think you mean groove diameter; cut rifling doesn't change the bore diameter.

Jim
 
Hi, Pinotguy,

You wrote "First, you can literally produce any bore diameter you want using cut rifling."

I think you mean groove diameter; cut rifling doesn't change the bore diameter.

D'oh - a major league brain fart.

Edited post haste.
 
way off topic, maybe

Harry Bonar wrote
I visited Dave in the local rest home (a mistake). There he was strapped to his wheel-chair - barely remembered me but when he did he said, "Bonar, we're opening up the shop next week and we're going to make barrels again." I said, "Yea, dave = I'll be down." Damn!
Harry B.

Sir,
I respectfully submit that it's never a mistake to visit old friends, regardless of their condition or circumstances.

Speaking for myself, I have too many memories of seeing friends in their caskets, when I could have had more of seeing them alive...and didn't because I was busy or they weren't "doing too well".

All the best,
Rob
 
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