Rifle Quality - Then and Now

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warbirdlover

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I've heard the statement of how quality has gone downhill for all these major rifle manufacturer's blah blah so often I have to open my big mouth. I've been in the manufacturing industry for almost 50 years, from machinist to quality department to engineering to metallurgy and I have some comments.

As we all know Henry Ford started the interchangeable part manufacturing method that eliminated the "hand fitting and lapping" required previously. The age of the "craftsman" was over since productivity was dramatically raised.

Then

Old machinery (lathes, drill presses etc) used back "then" required very highly skilled operators. If you didn't pay to get the best your quality suffered. The ability of these machines to control the sizes (within the designed tolerance "range") was not very good. Most of the time this FULL tolerance range was used.

Now

The new CNC machines now used by most companies can control sizes to ranges unheard of back "then". They are easy to set up and "fit" between parts can be close to the old "hand fitting" days by tightening up the tolerance ranges of the mating parts. This is fact. There is no comparison to the machinery of today compared to the old stuff. There is also new heat treating processes that significantly improve the strength and yield less distortion then doing it the old way.

So why do we hear of quality going down compared to the old days? Here is what I believe....

No more inspectors. Inspectors do not contribute to the manufacture of the product, only to ensuring that it meets specifications so they have been mostly eliminated. The machine operators are now their own inspectors. Is this good or bad? It depends on operator "attitude". Do they care about what they do and take pride in it? Or are they just killing time until that cool computer job comes along? I believe it is determined by the wages they earn. For the machinist, assembly person or whatever attitude is everything in the production of quality products. The old machinists etc were content with their "lot in life" and took pride in their work. I don't see that as much today. Is this the company's fault. Could be. The trick to management is the ability to make the work force feel needed and appreciated. If you don't your quality will drop, no matter how good your machinery and processes are.

One last point is the product design. Why are Savages so inherently accurate? Well thought out design. Even before the accutriggers and accustocks they were accurate. Why? A major difference is not how well their barrels are made but how they are assembled. Using the locking nut design they can put in a "minimum" tolerance gauge in the bore, turn the barrel down to it and lock it with the nut. The minimum (tightest) headspace is achieved on ALL rifles built. They don't have to rely on control of a tolerance for proper headspace. This is genius! And the floating front section of the bolt allows the lugs to give perfect lockup. Like the lapped lugs used in days gone by. Remington 700's have (or used to have) a reputation for accuracy. That has to do with the design of the receiver which has been copied by many. Design influences quality.

Sorry for the long post but I really believe what I've said in regard to yesterday's quality compared to today's. If it has gone down it is due to the people doing the job and their attitude.
 
not sure I totally agree with that im sure there is alot that do take pride in there job still and have an attitude to make a quality product.
Would actually put more of the blame on managment of the company with poor designs and cutting costs to be able to make the product cheaper results in lower quality.
just look at how many companys thats been bought out by another many probably have the very same workforce doing the job but quality went downhill for reasons that probably wasnt in there control.
 
Everything was better in the old days dontyaknow?

People, cars, airplanes, schools, guns, the president, highways, soldiers, heavy machinery.... Everything.

The world was a veritable paradise I tell you. World civilization peaked at (insert # here) and has been going down hill ever since.

Except it didn't and it has not.
 
Why are Savages so inherently accurate? Well thought out design. Even before the accutriggers and accustocks they were accurate. Why? A major difference is not how well their barrels are made but how they are assembled. Using the locking nut design they can put in a "minimum" tolerance gauge in the bore, turn the barrel down to it and lock it with the nut. The minimum (tightest) headspace is achieved on ALL rifles built. They don't have to rely on control of a tolerance for proper headspace. This is genius! And the floating front section of the bolt allows the lugs to give perfect lockup
Click to expand...

I agree, modern rifles as a rule are much more accurate than older rifles. The rifles being made today are the best made in history. Lots of guys don't like some of the shortcuts of modern manufacturing methods or some of the cheaper materials, even though they have proven to be better. They are more interested in looks than performance.

On the Savage rifles. Their manufacturing methods have made it possible for them to build an accurate rifle for less money than other companies, but not a rifle that is any more accurate than the others. As long as everything is put together correctly on a Ruger, Winchester, Remington, or any other brand they will be just as accurate, if not more so, than a Savage.

I will concede that you are more likely to get a lemon from other brands, because it is harder and more expensive to ensure everything is "RIGHT". You are more likely to get a good shooter from Savage because their design makes it eaasier to ensure everything is "RIGHT". But in terms of pure accuracy, I've never shot a Savage that was any better than anything else as long as the other rifle was not a lemon. The accu-trigger and accustock are primarily gimmicks to try to sell rifles to folks who don't know any better. Those are the first things replaced by folks who are serious shooters who own Savage rifles.

I've owned dozens of rifles in my life, including several made by Savage. So far I've not shot one good enough to earn a permanent spot alongside the Winchesters, Rugers, Remingtons, FN, Interarms, Howa, and Tikka in my safe.
 
Rifles

Some companys just produce more lemons per thousand than others.,simple as that and it changes over time. QUALITY CONTROL and it is the reason some rifle manufacturers have much better reps., case in point, pre 64 Winchester Model 70s. Everyone raves about them and has for yrs,are they any better than the new ones? i really dont know? but they seem to be somewhat of a modern day standard to compare to at times. You get a lemon,get rid of it, and move on until the cherry is found and i have many times in my life and not just with rifles by the way,same as autos.
 
The newer machines are amazing in what they can do totally autonomously but you still need a human who cares about the product to provide hands on inspection.
 
"Everything was better in the old days dontyaknow?"

The walnut available for stocks was certainly better back then.
 
Quality is always available at a price. I've purchased 2 new Sako rifles in the last 2 years- a Bavarian .308 & Quad .17hmr. The finish on these rifles seem even better than my 30 year old Sako 22-250 forrester.
 
Staying with most of the usual brands, there's not much accuracy difference between basic rifles and the higher-end. The main difference is that of fit and finish.

Because of improvements in the machinery, accuracy is generally better now than it was fifty years back. Because of labor costs, fit and finish for a basic rifle is not as good as "back then".

I note that the pre-'64 Model 70 Winchesters, while accurate, weren't necessarily as capable of tight groups as the later 1960s and 1970s production.
 
The walnut available for stocks was certainly better back then.
Click to expand...

I don't know if you have priced quality walnut stocks lately but WOW. You get can get the quality but for the price of a nice used car.
 
I am one of those old farts that truly believe the modern crop of rifles to be substandard in almost every way. While everyone touts the accuracy of these modern rifles, especially gun rags, they almost never mention that such accuracy is not needed for a hunting rifle. My Grandpa's old Winchester was a 1.5 MOA rifle at best yet he never had any problems harvesting game. There is a lot more to quality than just accuracy. Many new rifles with flimsy plastic stocks are touted as lightweight and all weather to justify a cost cutting measure. Just try to properly bed one of these flimsy hollow stocks. You are also going to have a hard time convincing us old farts that these multi-piece bolt and a receiver drilled from round bar is stronger and better than a couple of good solid chunks of forged steel.

There are some new rifles made with old world craftsmanship, but they are generally semi customs where you have to pay for the quality.
 
Think it could be the kind of shooter and type of shooting that drives quality down as well. Many folks just buy a gun to have or shoot a couple boxes and put it away.
 
I think most of it has to do with the Walmartizing of the US gun market. Starting in with the Winchester redesigns of '64, price became the all consuming factor, quality be damned. Guns are a commodity in the US, and you either go cheap or you go out of business. Top example is the Freedom group which mainly markets to the US, and cuts every corner possible. Worldwide operating groups like FN and Beretta cannot afford to produce low quality items as they market to people with restricted gun buying. If you're only allowed one gun, you're more likely to want the best, not the cheapest.
 
Craftsmanship, Quality, Pride in a product something to be proud of. Back in the day you could go to a gun show and see all kinds of beautiful rifle line up that some one took pride in to build. Now you see a lot of cheep plastic junk but it is cheep er. I have a old 30 30 Marlin my daddy give me on my 14 birthday, all metal and wood I look at it in the safe and compare it to the cheep guns in the stores here.
 
The consumer and the "Walmart mentality" has pulled down quality across the board of consumer goods. It's a current economical truth that "quality" is no longer the top consideration in many consumer goods. What sells now is "price."
Most customers (gun buyers included) are intersted in getting a "good enough" product for a small price.

Consider that most of the members of this forum are in the minority of gun owners. We are firearms enthusiasts. Most gun owners have firearms used for hunting, home protection, occasional plinking, etc. Since they don't need sub MOA accuracy (and in fact probably don't evne know the definition of the term) they see no value in spending X amount more than the cheapo on the shelf at S-mart.

I don't fall into the "good ole days were better" crowd. There are guns out now that are better than the old ones, and there are gun that are not as good as they used to be. To me is a zero-sum game.
 
The robot-mechanization of our industries may minimize some errors, but thorough checking is absolutely necessary to prevent dangerous situations.

Besides, when only robots are working in industry, who will buy products? Robots don't buy guns or cars; people with money do, and in the past, some of the better paying jobs have been in industry. Adults who sell you fries at McDonalds don't often buy a lot of guns, boats, snowmobiles, or other fun stuff.
 
Earlier this Year I was showing a Couple of friends my Remington 1903 A3 30 06, and my Yugoslavian 24 47 8MM Mauser. I was admiring the mechiening and craftsmanship.
One of my friend said, they sure have come along way with firearms technology since then. Then he told me how much he likes his Remington 770. His older Brother gave him a blank stare, and
I just rolled my eyes. LOL:D
 
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I recall reading many times how modern precision machining would take the place of hand fitting and let us buy things like double shotguns and express rifles at "popular prices." That was 40-50 years ago. Hasn't happened yet.

What we get is accurate but often ugly bolt actions and a lot of fako military weapons. Neal Knox once wrote that the half minute semi-auto was in sight. We have those too, but they don't inspire much pride. As one old timer said, the nice thing about an attractive firearm is that even if you don't see any game, you can sit on a stump and admire your gun.

I think it was Don Zutz, better known for his shotgun articles, who took a nice old blue steel and walnut rifle and shot it with the best of new manufacture bullets. It was just as accurate as a typical stainless and plastic sporter, and much better than what was reported for the model when it was new. His conclusion was that modern manufacturing had done more to help bullet quality than rifle precision.

I have also seen a couple of examples of the old machinist's proverb that a modern automatic manufacturing setup, if not perfectly programmed, will turn out scrap faster than ever before possible.
 
I think all posts here have a valid point. I guess the way i see it is,,What people want their rifles to do these days. One post mentioned as long as you have 1.5 MOA you are good to go. That is true,but most want much better than that these days.For a basic hunting rifle (deer).I would venture to say any rifle no matter how bad it is will get the job done. I shoot around 400 to 500 rounds a weekend between 223 and 308 all summer long:eek:. Come a month before deer hunting season as we all know, The range has a way of getting very busy fast.
As i sit there shooting and helping other sight in there rifles,I see this same target for a month straight (6 inch paper plates) stapled to a piece of wood. They shoot at 100 yards and put 5 out of 5 in that plate and their good to go.

A month or 2 before this hecktic season when it is target shooters out there. I see (as with me) a 1 inch target hanging at 200 yards and if you can put 5 out of 5 in that area,you go back to the drawing board. To sum this up,what im getting at is I think quality has dropped some what,but mainly i think the issue is. We as a group are starting to want more and more out of our rifles.. Go back 35 years ago.. yes 1000 yard shoots were there,Not common and rarley done. Now days--1000 yard shoots are common practice. Not in hunting but for just paper punching.
 
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