I have an H&R Model 157 in 30-30 (single shot). It fires all remington, federal, etc. but this weekend if purchased a box of Remington Managed Recoil and they will not fire. The firing pin is hitting the primer and leaving a nice, cented indention but no ignition. Tried five rounds without a single round being fired. Pull the cartridge out and replace with regular one and kaboom. I called Remington today and they said they have not heard of such a problem. Any thoughts? I am not a gunsmith....any suggestions as to what I should do? Thanks
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Rifle problem or Cartridge Problem
- Thread starter 101guns
- Start date
I dont know about your H&R. But on other single shots, such as the TCs, the 30-30 and simular rounds headspace on the shoulder instead of the rim in the M-94s Win and Marlin rilfes.
If this is the case and I'm not saying it is, then the Ammo you cant get to fire may be too short (from shoulder to base) to allow the firing pin to hit he primer hard enough because the case goes farther in then it should.
The way to tell is to take a depth gage and measure the cases that don't work and compair then to the ones that do. Just open the action, slip in both cases and see if you can messure the differance. It dont take much to be seated too far. Also mic the thickness of the two rims and see if there is a differance.
Or just forget it and shoot the ammo that works.
If this is the case and I'm not saying it is, then the Ammo you cant get to fire may be too short (from shoulder to base) to allow the firing pin to hit he primer hard enough because the case goes farther in then it should.
The way to tell is to take a depth gage and measure the cases that don't work and compair then to the ones that do. Just open the action, slip in both cases and see if you can messure the differance. It dont take much to be seated too far. Also mic the thickness of the two rims and see if there is a differance.
Or just forget it and shoot the ammo that works.
To insure proper ignition and alleviate misfires, cases should be neck sized which allows headspacing on the shoulder of the case.
That is Hornady's Third addition, page 372, Regarding loading the 30-30 in the Contender.
That is from the Sierra Manuel, Edition V 2nd printing, page 925.Like any rimmed case in the contender, best accuracy and case life is obtained when the case is headspaced on the shoulder, not the rim.
There are other referances but you get the point.
303guns, you have a responsibility to send the ammo to Remington, if they do nothing, you have a complaint.
Head space, belted and rimmed, can not have it both ways, it is either or, it head spaces on the belt if it is a belted case, it head spaces on the rim if it is a rimmed case, after firing, the belt or rim can be ignored if the hand loader has an adjustable die/press combination and knows how to adjust the combination to avoid moving the shoulder back. While the hand loader is sizing, the neck could be called 'neck sized' or 'partial neck sized', the body of the case is supported but not completely sized, it is sized enough to to ensure chambered, this allows the hand loader to get the maximum use of a full length sizer die.
A friend call me about his last trip to the range, he said he was given a box of ammo, 20 Remington 30/06, 15 fired and 5 with dents in the primer that did not fire, two attempts were made to fire the five cases in two different rifles. I explained to him I was not much on talking about it and gave him Remington's phone number/contact information, he called them and they said they were unaware of a problem but needed the ammo back for testing, he called me back and asked me what I would do, I explained to him if I was involved, I would already know what was wrong with the rifle/primers, he came over and we removed the bullets with a RCBS collet puller, weighed the powder, bullets and cases, I removed the primers after measuring the case length from the shoulder to the head of the case, then measured the fired cases, of the 15 fired cases 2 were fired in another rifle, the other 13 were longer from the shoulder to the head of the case by .003 thousands. After removing the primers, I reinstalled the primers (without effort) in the 5 unfired cases, then chambered the primed cases in the last build, a Winchester M1917, all five primers fired.
Why? removing the primers was effortless, I doubt the anvil moved back when removed, the primer strike on the M1917 is solid, I believe the M1917 would have fired all 20 cartridges, I believe the second rifle used to test the primers at the range was at a disadvantage trying to fire a case with a dent in the primer, seems the travel would have been compromised, I believe the firing pin travel on the (new) rifle is too short to fire the primers, and there could be a problem with the distance between the back of the primer and anvil, if the shooter at the range had stoped shooting when he discovered there was a problem and left some of the cases unfired and Remington could have test the primers, with 2 sets of dents, removed and reseated, all 5 primers did what they were designed to do, and there is not a lot of room between the back of the primer and the anvil.
In the beginning there were rimmed cartridges, the rim held the case to the rear, what happened in front of the rim was of little concern, the case when fired filled the chamber, then came the belted, like the rim, the belt held the case to the rear, what happen in front of the belt was of little consequence, the case was fired, the belt held the case in place and the case body filled the chamber, because little consideration was given to 303 British chambers and H&H chambers, head space was on the rim or belt, nothing has changed, the belt or rim still holds the case to the rear, if a hand loader wants to cut down on all of the case travel from repeated firing and sizing, when the body of the case moves out, the hand loader can decide to leave it out, there is no better way to accomplish this than with a feeler gage, the second alternative is invest $150.00 + in gages etc., etc.. the point? the 30/30 head space on the rim or the 30/30 can head space on the shoulder but purchasing new ammo that will chamber and head space on a shoulder of a chamber that was given little consideration to 'fit' is imposable, and again there is sizing a case without case body support, partial support is better than 'no support', get a feeler gage.
Case protrusion: head space variation or difference (or the effect a case has on head space) can be measured when case protrusion is measured and the results compared to a gage or another cartridge, on a brake over action, the gap between the case head and breach head can be measured with a feeler gage to the .000 thousands.
F. Guffey
Head space, belted and rimmed, can not have it both ways, it is either or, it head spaces on the belt if it is a belted case, it head spaces on the rim if it is a rimmed case, after firing, the belt or rim can be ignored if the hand loader has an adjustable die/press combination and knows how to adjust the combination to avoid moving the shoulder back. While the hand loader is sizing, the neck could be called 'neck sized' or 'partial neck sized', the body of the case is supported but not completely sized, it is sized enough to to ensure chambered, this allows the hand loader to get the maximum use of a full length sizer die.
A friend call me about his last trip to the range, he said he was given a box of ammo, 20 Remington 30/06, 15 fired and 5 with dents in the primer that did not fire, two attempts were made to fire the five cases in two different rifles. I explained to him I was not much on talking about it and gave him Remington's phone number/contact information, he called them and they said they were unaware of a problem but needed the ammo back for testing, he called me back and asked me what I would do, I explained to him if I was involved, I would already know what was wrong with the rifle/primers, he came over and we removed the bullets with a RCBS collet puller, weighed the powder, bullets and cases, I removed the primers after measuring the case length from the shoulder to the head of the case, then measured the fired cases, of the 15 fired cases 2 were fired in another rifle, the other 13 were longer from the shoulder to the head of the case by .003 thousands. After removing the primers, I reinstalled the primers (without effort) in the 5 unfired cases, then chambered the primed cases in the last build, a Winchester M1917, all five primers fired.
Why? removing the primers was effortless, I doubt the anvil moved back when removed, the primer strike on the M1917 is solid, I believe the M1917 would have fired all 20 cartridges, I believe the second rifle used to test the primers at the range was at a disadvantage trying to fire a case with a dent in the primer, seems the travel would have been compromised, I believe the firing pin travel on the (new) rifle is too short to fire the primers, and there could be a problem with the distance between the back of the primer and anvil, if the shooter at the range had stoped shooting when he discovered there was a problem and left some of the cases unfired and Remington could have test the primers, with 2 sets of dents, removed and reseated, all 5 primers did what they were designed to do, and there is not a lot of room between the back of the primer and the anvil.
In the beginning there were rimmed cartridges, the rim held the case to the rear, what happened in front of the rim was of little concern, the case when fired filled the chamber, then came the belted, like the rim, the belt held the case to the rear, what happen in front of the belt was of little consequence, the case was fired, the belt held the case in place and the case body filled the chamber, because little consideration was given to 303 British chambers and H&H chambers, head space was on the rim or belt, nothing has changed, the belt or rim still holds the case to the rear, if a hand loader wants to cut down on all of the case travel from repeated firing and sizing, when the body of the case moves out, the hand loader can decide to leave it out, there is no better way to accomplish this than with a feeler gage, the second alternative is invest $150.00 + in gages etc., etc.. the point? the 30/30 head space on the rim or the 30/30 can head space on the shoulder but purchasing new ammo that will chamber and head space on a shoulder of a chamber that was given little consideration to 'fit' is imposable, and again there is sizing a case without case body support, partial support is better than 'no support', get a feeler gage.
Case protrusion: head space variation or difference (or the effect a case has on head space) can be measured when case protrusion is measured and the results compared to a gage or another cartridge, on a brake over action, the gap between the case head and breach head can be measured with a feeler gage to the .000 thousands.
F. Guffey
That is why I define headspace as the distance between the breech face and the surface that supports the cartridge. In a rimmed cartridge the cartridge is supported for firing by the rim; even if the case has a shoulder, it is not the support point, and is not intended to be.
Jim
Jim
Are the primers on the Remington Managed Recoil cartridges below flush with the cartridge base? If so, the firing pin's protrusion might not be long enough to push the primer cup into the primer anvil. It goes 'bang' only if the priming compound gets pinched between cup and anvil.
If you neck size a rimmed bottleneck case, the next time it goes back in the chamber it will be headspacing on the shoulder because the shoulder will touch down in the chamber before the rim. That is also the most accurate way to shoot bottleneck rimmed cases for the same reasons it it most accurate with rimless cases. Unfortunately for 101guns, you have to fire them fist to make that happen.
I agree with sending them back to Remington. If you know someone with a headspace gauge, by all means measure the thickness of the rim and the casehead to shoulder distances. See if either or both are thinner or shorter than those of the cartridges that are firing properly? If not, that pretty much leaves a problem with the primers. Whatever the cause, Remington should have an opportunity to examine the ammo.
I agree with sending them back to Remington. If you know someone with a headspace gauge, by all means measure the thickness of the rim and the casehead to shoulder distances. See if either or both are thinner or shorter than those of the cartridges that are firing properly? If not, that pretty much leaves a problem with the primers. Whatever the cause, Remington should have an opportunity to examine the ammo.