Rifle choices: 44 Mag. or 45-70 Govt.?

B

Bowhunter57

New member
I currently own a Henry Big Boy (steel frame), in 44 Mag. and plan on using it for coyotes, groundhogs and deer.

However, when I purchased my Henry, I laid eyes on a Marlin 1895 Cowboy in 45-70 Govt...with a 26" octagon barrel. This rifle is long, gorgeous and called my name several times, but I walked out of the store with the Henry. I plan on going back to purchase this Marlin, reload for it and use it for hunting the same critters...coyotes, groundhogs and deer.

My question:
Which one would you prefer to use for hunting the above mentioned animals? ...and Why?

Your experiences and opinions are appreciated.
Bowhunter57
 
I have, or have had numerous firearms in both calibers, pistol and rifle.

Neither one is considered a long range rifle, and somewhere between 100 and 200 yards is about all most people can manage. The guns, of course are capable of much greater range, and accuracy, but lever guns are seldom well set up for that.

Your two biggest problems on game will be the size (and movement) of the target, and your ability to accurately judge the range of the animal, vs the range your rifle is sighted in at.

For example, a 400gr .45-70 MV 1500fps (a couple hundred fps faster than the BP load) hitting dead on at 100 will be over 6 FEET low at 300yards.

The same slug, sighted to hit point of aim at 200yards will be over 10" HIGH at 100yards. The numbers for the .44 are slightly different, but similar.

If your shots are under 100, the effect is less severe, but its still there, and the smaller the target area the more precise you have to be.

I had a Marlin 95, the standard one, and with the loads it liked best and a good shot, you could get <2" three shot groups at 100. About double that with other loads. I've got a Ruger No.3 .45-70, and it will put three shots in one hole at 50yds, if I do my part, although two holes is more likely.

Had a Marlin .44Mag years ago, don't know about the Henry.

The big case and heavy bullet of the .45-70 mean the ammo is more costly, but handloading helps a lot with that.

If the rifle speaks to you, get it. Some folks shoot some guns better than others. Big bore for groundhogs is a bit of overkill, but its good practice, and will help hone your shooting skills.

If you are shooting moving coyote, I would choose a lighter caliber and lighter rifle (easier to swing) than the big bore lever guns, but again, it boils down to how much effort and skill the shooter needs to have. Dropping a trotting coyote at 80yds with a big bore lever gun is a different level than doing it with a scoped AR-15.

The .44Mag will shoot through a deer, fired from a handgun. Power is not the issue, only the shooters ability to use it.

The Cowboy Marlin .45-70 can be a real bruiser, and even the mild (my opinion) factory 405gr load at black powder speed can be uncomfortable for some, particularly in guns with the "traditional" old style stocks and butts. And if you are going for loads heavier than those, which the Marlin will handle, the shape and fit of the butt become critical to managing the recoil.

Mount the rifle incorrectly on your shoulder even once, and you will understand exactly what I mean!
 
44 AMP explained things better than I could, but I personally would opt for the .44 mag for modest range hunting. For longer range hunting, I would prefer a flatter shooting cartridge than either of them... though maybe in Ohio that's not an option?
 
Stick with the 44 mag. I owned a 45-70 for close to 40 years and think they are the most over rated cartridge made. They have no real history except for colorful advertising. The round was developed for the military during the indian wars and traditional loads are equivalent to 45 caliber muzzle loaders. The minimum legal for whitetails in most places and a step below 44 mag. The round was never used for buffalo hunting and was considered underpowered for anything larger than whitetails in it's day.

The 30-30 when introduced was considerably more powerful and by the time the 30-06 came on the scene the 45-70 was all but dead. It was only used as a military round for a handful of years and faded into obscurity. Marlin revived it 100 years later with colorful advertising and people think they are using a round of historical significance.

Granted, with modern loads it is now a legitimate big game round. But with extreme recoil all out of proportion to its performance. If you want to shoot bigger game, there are far better options that have actually earned some significance historically.
 
They have no real history except for colorful advertising.
Click to expand...

I guess that depends on your definition of "real history".

Primary service rifle round from 1873 to 1892. Secondary standard for a couple decades after that. Custer's men lost with the Trapdoor .45-70. Main rifle round during the Indian wars. Some of our units carried them in Cuba during the Spanish American war.

Later, Trapdoor Springfields were sold surplus (for something like $1.50) and lots of them became hunting rifles even though not as well suited as more expensive and modern sporting rifles.

I've had several .45-70s in the past 30+ years and I like it a lot. But then, I handload my own ammo, and have loads (and guns for them) that go from standard BP velocities up to just short of .458 Win Mag.]

That being said, if your upper limit is deer, the .44 mag would be more practical. Lesser recoil with top end loads, more easily available ammo, cheaper (a bit, hopefully), and your lever gun has a slightly shorter throw, so it can be a touch quicker, if you are.
 
.45-70 is certainly a much more capable caliber. If desired, even in the somewhat limited Marlin 1895, it can be set up to shoot flat out to 200y (eg. Hornady 250g Monoflex @ 2400 ft/s sighted 2.5" high @ 100y). There's no way I know of to do that with a .44 Mag. So if I was going to hunt deer with one of the two, I'd take the .45-70 in a heart beat.

Either of them will put down coyotes and groundhogs in excessive fashion.
 
My small 44 mag lever carbine is exceedingly easy to shoot even with the most powerful FN loads I can cook up which within proper range and aim can probably drop most game on the planet. I don't have a 45-70 yet--but my friends that do tell me that once you start pushing them out towards the warm side of loads--that's when the recoil can start biting you.
 
Anything the .44 magnum can do in a rifle, the 45-70 can do better. A LOT better. Have taken most everything, from whitetail through moose with my 45-70, I see nothing to debate.
 
I would use the .45-70 in a heartbeat, just for the cool factor. Probably even load it with black powder :D .44 mag is a great round too, but call me nostalgic. Shooting groundhogs with a .45-70 just sounds great.
 
cost

Comes down to money for me. You'll shoot a .44 at about half the cost (?) of the 45-70, and maybe half the recoil too.

Granted, I wouldn't think one would get too many shots hunting to be really expensive, but practice, plinking, would run the numbers up quickly.
 
The TRUTH for JMR40 (again...)

JMR40, this is the second time in 2 months you have made the SAME FALSE statement...

It is one thing to be wrong but when you know you are wrong and you keep saying it, you know what you are...

Sorry for highjacking a thread again but, JMR40 keeps spouting information he knows is incorrect and it needs to be corrected...

Below is what I wrote in responce to his fabricated/false/misrepresented history June 8, 2014...



Sorry to the OP and others, I know this is supposed to be about AR-15 cartridges.

But when some clown comes up with a total misrepresentation of the facts, it needs to be corrected.


"You are right about the 1600 fps being comparable to a traditional 45-70 load."

WRONG! Original .45-70 velocity with a 405g bullet was 1300-1350 FPS...


"But the 45-70 was not a legendary buffalo gun. For one thing almost all the buffalo were dead long before the 45-70 was even introduced."

You have got to be kidding, have you even once read a history book?


"Only a handful were still around when the Civil war started in 1861..."

Again, CHECK YOUR FACTS, you do not have a clue...


"...the 45-70 wasn't introduced until 1873..."

Well you goy ONE thing right, amazing...


"... and laws were passed in 1874 banning buffalo hunting in order to preserve the few left."

WRONG!

In 1874 President Ulysses S. Grant "pocket vetoed" a Federal bill to protect the dwindling bison herds, and in 1875 General Philip Sheridan pleaded to a joint session of Congress to slaughter the herds, to deprive the Indians of their source of food.

By 1884, the American Bison was close to extinction. 1884 is a lond time after 1873. This is ELEVEN years AFTER the .45-70 was introduced...


"It was never used by buffalo hunters..."

WRONG AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN...

Fact is, although the .50-70 might be the most popular "buffalo cartridge" up to 1873. After 1873 the .45-70 QUICKLY became THE MOST POPULAR...


"...and was considered borderline even in it's day for deer."

Where are you come up with this BS?

Remember the .50-70 and .45-70 were not made just for killing indians, it had to be able to STOP THEIR HORSES...

How can the .45-70 be "marginal for deer" but good at stopping a 1,000-2,000 horse?


As evidence (ie. FACT)...

1870, An estimated two million bison were killed this year on the southern plains.

As late as 1871, a young soldier named George Anderson described an “enormous” herd of bison in Kansas which took he and his men six days to pass through. “I am safe in calling this a single herd,” he wrote, “and it is impossible to approximate the millions that composed it.”

1871, This year marked the beginning of the end of the southern herd. The greatest slaughter took place along the railroads.

1872, During this year and the next two, an average of 5,000 bison were killed each day, every day of the year,

1873, On the southern plains, slaughter reached its peak.

1873 the .45-70 is "introduced"...

1874, This year marked the seeming end of the great southern herd.

1880, Slaughter of the northern herd had begun. This is SEVEN years AFTER the .45-70 was introduced and almost TWENTY years from the beginning of the civil war...

1881, This years winter marked the largest slaughter of the northern herd. One county in Montana shipped 180,000 buffalo skins. This is EIGHT years AFTER the .45-70 was introduced and from a SINGLE County from a SINGLE state...

1882, Over 10,000 bison were taken during one hunt of a few days length in Dakota Territory in September. This is NINE years AFTER the .45-70 was introduced...

1889, Last commercial shipments of hides anywhere in United States. This is SIXTEEN years AFTER the .45-70 was introduced...

Don't have the info. available but the production records of both Sharps and Remington along with their delivery records will show that the .45-70 rapidly became the most popular BUFFALO CARTRIDGE and they were shipped to western distributors and customers (St. Louis, MO and further west).

T.
 
44 AMP nailed it. No real benefits gained over the .44 mag for what you want to do but get it because you want it....:D. I have a .44mag as well and fully intend on picking up a 45-70 as well, they are fun to shoot.
 
FWIW, I have owned a Rossi .44 mag carbine and a Marlin 1895 CB. I still own the Marlin. The .45-70 can be loaded light for plinking, groundhogs etc, or heavy for bigger things. I have killed groundhogs, a coyote and a few deer with the .45-70 and I can't see where a .44 magnum would have been better at it. The only thing you need to consider is that the 1895 cowboy is a fairly lightweight rifle. So with heavier loads it will thump you pretty good, but that's what recoil pads are for.
 
45-70 looks impressive because the huge brass cartridge was necessary to load 70 grains of black powder. I can certaily be loaded up with smokelss powders for modern rifles, but if I really wanted a .45 caliber, hi power lever gun, a .454 Casull with get you there with a much shorter and more efficient cartridge, especially for a lever gun, with the option of shooting .45LC for recreation.

If you are not a handloader, and rely on off the shelf ammo, the .44 magnum is probably a better choice, with a much wider array of factor ammo available at less than 45LC cost. (still expensive though)
 
Thank you, for the informative replies, gentlemen! :cool:

44 AMP,
I appreciate your information and to answer some of your questions...
I currently own the Henry (steel frame) 44 Mag, but have not fired it, yet.
I've hunted with 44 Mag handguns for many years and this is my first rifle in this caliber and I do reload for everything that I own/shoot.

I prefer hunting groundhogs with the same weapons that I intend on using for coyotes and deer, to stay familiar with the weapon and its' sighting methods.

My plans for the Marlin 1895 CB, in 45-70 is to reload some 300gr. JHP bullets, sight them in for 100 yards, do some plinking from 50 to 150 yards and go hunting. I have yet to purchase this rifle, as I have a fishing kayak and a bass guitar for sale and they have to sell, before I make the rifle purchase. :rolleyes:
Anyway... I'm not shooting the Henry, until I get the Marlin. I may use the Marlin for everything that I intend to hunt and sell the Henry later. I'm not sure about this and won't be until I get the Marlin in my hands, shoot some reloads an see how she does on paper and then get a couple of groundhog kills under my belt.

Thank you, Bowhunter57
 
Having owned and hunted deer with both, I'd lean towards the .45-70 for deer, and either for anything else,
although it is somewhat less expensive to use the Henry on Groundhog & Coyote...
the Marlin can take Hot Loads that the Henry could not...they are Overbuilt, to use an engineering descriptor...

While it can be rather fun to blow thru both shoulders of a deer with a hot handload, as they drop DRT,
but then you are picking bone slivers out of good meat, or tossing the shoulders...
so head/neck shotswork far better for saving the yummy!!
Its also exceptional when using the "Texas Cornhole Shot"...
dc8Xnjbce.png


(Don't exceed SAAMI for the rifle tho...even I'm not that crazy ;) )
 
To each his own I suppose. I recently acquired an 1888 vintage Winchester "High Wall" in 45-70. I didn't think it would, but it has become my favorite rifle these days for plinking, and I expect to stretch its legs a bit as the days go by.

Speaking for myself, to me it seems that the 44 Magnum and the 45-70 are comparable, except that you can shoot heavier slugs with the latter. Whether this is something you consider an advantage is mostly subjective.

Get whatever speaks to you. Clearly there are better choices for the shooting OP has in mind, but his tastes are legitimate for him. Either one of these two cartridges will kill old Wile E. Coyote just as dead, dare I say, even with marginal shots.

OP do you intend to use an optic of some sort?
 
My line of reasoning is thus: the 44 mag is going to hammer anything inside of 100 yds or so. The 45 70 is definitely capable of reaching out further, but at those distances I would select a more modern bolt action caliber (easier to reload for) to enhance my odds--but in the end it all comes down to trigger time.
 
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