Rifle accuracy questions?

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gunjunkie118

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Hey everybody, so I have a Howa 1500 with a Vortex Crossfire ii 6-18x44 scope that I just bought and I was sighting it in today. I got the rifle sighted in at 100 yards, so after those first 6 shots I decided to run 2 dry patches through the bore. My POI is now 3.5-4 inches higher, I then resighted and Im shooting good. So does my rifle like to shoot dirty opposed to clean? Could my scope be part of the issue? Please help me figure this out
 
"Rinse and repeat." Do it again and see if you get the same result.

This is something of which I have read, but I've never encountered this situation.
 
You'll have to experiment to see if you can duplicate the issue, and then try to figure out the cause. I've heard of dirty barrel vs. clean barrel POI shifts, but never 4" worth. Same with cold barrel vs. hot barrel, maybe your issue is a combination of both? What cartridge is your rifle chambered for and how fast did you fire those 6 shots (how hot was the barrel before and after cleaning)?
 
In addition to what AllenJ said, you are dealing with a brand new barrel. I wouldn't even think about considering it properly sighted until I had shot at least 10 shots, cleaned it, then shot another 10 shots through it. Even then it isn't really broken in good and your POI could still change as the barrel ages.
 
Ok thanks guys. I have about 24 rounds through the rifle so it probably isn't broke in yet. I cleaned the bore really good today by using bore solvent and a brass brush, and I ran a lot of patches through it as well. Im using Hornady Superformance 95 grain rounds so it is kind of pricey to be shooting a lot haha.
 
FWIW, in the past whenever I began shooting a new factory rifle or perhaps a newly rebarreled rifle with an inexpensive chromemolly barrel on it, I wasn't too concerned about accuracy till after 50 or so rounds down the barrel. After 50 rounds, I expect to see the accuracy of the rifle improve. If the rifle was one I didn't reload for when I bought it, just bought the cheapest ammo I could find for it till I'd acquired the necessary reloading componets.
 
Huffmanite is right about the ammo - use the cheapest stuff you can for the first box or so during breaking.
 
Clean barrel vs dirty barrel variation in POI is real.
A target shooter will want "fouling shots" before he commences shooting for score, if the rules permit. If they don't, he will have his cold, clean barrel behavior plotted and adjust or hold to allow for it.
 
I disagree with Jim Watson's take on target shooters needing "fouling" shots before shooting for record when possible if they're shooting centerfire rifles.

A good barrel properly fit to the receiver will shoot to the same point of aim within 1/8 MOA going from cold and clean to fouled and hot up through 600 yards. Few folks can tell that much difference. Otherwise, all sorts of prepatory shots need be done.

All of my Springfield Armory, Hart, Obermeyer and Kreiger centerfire barrels have done this. With one single exception; when clean, the first shot or two are about 15 fps slower than the average of the remaining ones in a string of shots. That'll cause a very tiny shift in vertical impact that's not any concern at ranges less than 600 yards. Maybe 1/4 MOA at longer ranges.

Smallbore rimfire rifles do shoot to a different point of aim going from clean to fouled barrel. Takes 3 or 4 shots to foul the barrel so its consistant from shot to shot.

With factory or arsenal barrels that are not all that smooth and uniform in dimensions, they often need a few fouling shots to fill in all those rough spots with bullet jacket material so subsequent ones shoot out without some of it scraped off. Scraping off jacket material makes bullets unbalanced and they don't shoot accurate.
 
"Rinse and repeat." Do it again and see if you get the same result.

This is something of which I have read, but I've never encountered this situation.
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+1 I always hear about needing 'fouling shots' and what not, because POI can change. Well, my Ruger M77 in .270 win has never done such a thing. I should also add that I have given the gun a decent clean every few rounds, since I've gotten the rifle. I follow a 'break in' which many people don't believe in, but I am starting to think that the 'break in' has actually helped me from getting the POI change.

My theory is that the imperfections in the barrel can change POI slightly. By shooting 'fouling shots' you are effectively filling the imperfections with copper jacket fouling. Once they are filled your POI is where you want it, until the barrel gets too fouled to shoot accurately. This is just speculation, but I believe the reason I don't get the POI shift with my rifle, is because either it's too small to notice at 100 yards, and/or my 'break in' has smoothed the 'imperfections' enough that it isn't affecting accuracy to a noticeable point, and therefore, aren't causing as large of a shift between cleaned and slightly fouled.
 
Bart, I agree with you about the lack of need for fouling shots. If you take time to get the oil out, the clean dry bore should shoot like the fouled bore. However, its usually easier to pull the trigger to get the oil residue out.
 
I'd rather clean the oil residue out before shooting the rifle. I've seen too many "ringed" barrels folks decided to just shoot that thin film of oil out. Oil does not compress any measureable amount in thin-film application. But the force of trying to compress it will bulge the barrel.

Treat your barrels how you wish.
 
I agree with Jim Watson, but I'm not a formal target shooter. Fact is that I do all of my hunting/shooting with a fouled barrel. Never, or rarely ever, do I shoot with a clean barrel. So if I'm going to do my shooting with a fouled barrel and I happen to have at this moment a clean barrel, I'm going to foul it with two shots. And unless you're cleaning between shots, you are only going to have one clean barrel shot. Might as well foul it and get that out of the way.

And there's no 'one answer fits all' for whether the barrel should be fouled or not fouled or lightly fouled. My rifles are as different as are kids in a large family. The 220 likes a lightly fouled barrel. The 223 doesn't seem to have a preference.
 
Years ago shooting bench rest rifle, 6PPC all custom built rifles:
I would go through a cleaning routine after 5 shots fired in a match. All traces of copper would be removed in a long cleaning process. First with brushing and powder solvent then with copper only solvent and patches, finally clean patches until not a trace of anything could be found. 5 shots later and the process begins again. No fouling shots allowed. Once or twice I tried to shoot a second 5 shots on a fouled barrel just based on running out of time or got caught up in a conversation and lost the time allowed. The results were not good. A bench rest rifle match looks like a gun cleaning contest. To a person that did not know what was going on you might think that it was a bunch of folks learning how to clean guns.

IMHO accuracy is degrading while shooting, it's not improving by laying down random deposits in your bore. how could it?
 
Bart, my usual method is a patch through the bore and then a couple of foulers. The storage oil I use requires solvent and time to remove completely without a bit of fire.
Mike, I know quite a few BR shooter who still religiously clean as you described. It is getting very common now for shooters to go long strings without cleaning. My new rifle will usually not start opening up until around 30 shots. Granted it is a .30BR, but I am seeing a lot of 6's doing similar things.
 
Eldermike, like I said, I don't do any formal target shooting, but I have seen over the years that my best groups come between rounds 3 and 15 on the 220 Swift, and it's a custom barrel. It likes a fouled barrel, but not a really fouled barrel. I have a new 260 with a Brux barrel, and it doesn't seem to foul much at all, so clean or dirty it shoots about the same (which is extremely well).

And on another forum I'm on, it seems like some of the guys feel like shooting 400 rounds between cleanings is Ok. Seems odd to me, but you can't change their minds.

My thoughts on cleaning frequency are more along the lines of light carbon fouling is Ok and a certain amount of copper/gilding metal laydown is best for accuracy. A while back I got one of those new gets-all-the-darn-copper-out cleaners and I actually saw a minor degradation in accuracy in one or two rifles. I had to copper it up a little to get back to where I was. So I don't take out all the copper any more. The Brux barrel is so new and fouls so little that I don't know yet what it likes best.
 
I cant imagine shooting in a discipline that required a thorough cleaning of my gun every 5 rounds. It's unimaginable. My most accurate gun is my Ruger M77 MkII in .204Ruger. It routinely shoots between 1/3-1/2 MOA at 100 yards. I clean it very rarely. Less than twice a year, for sure. Last year, I cleaned it because I couldn't remember the last time I'd cleaned it. It had to have been at least 100 rounds. It was still shooting 1/2 MOA or less at 100 and about 3/4 at 400. My other guns all shoot between 3/4-1 MOA at 100. Same treatment, the bore gets cleaned when accuracy degrades or when it occurs to me that it's been a while. Usually, that means the bore doesn't get cleaned.

Of course, I've always followed one of those "useless" barrel break-in procedures. Interestingly enough, my rifles are all very accurate, foul very little and maintain accuracy over a large number of shots. With some powders, I can shoot 10 rounds and look through the bore at a bright light and the barrel appears pristinely clean, unused.
 
Good the hear that benchresters are easing off the cleaning a bit. I might have stayed at it longer:) My experience with bench rest rifle is if you do what the others do then it's up to the shooter to make the difference. With just a few 1000's inch between 1 and 10 place it's not easy to just try something and see if it works.
 
Hey guys thanks a lot for the great feedback. You all have taught me a lot and it is obvious that I have some testing to do with my rifle. I can't wait to put some of this info towards my next firing session. Yall take care and have fun out there at the range or in the field.
 
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