revolver vs auto case size (.38spl vs 9mm)?

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hologon

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This is a really silly question. I was at the range today and rented a .375mag loaded with .38spl and noticed that the .38spl round is a good deal bigger (case is longer) than the 9mm (or the .45ACP for that matter...).

Why is the .38spl's case so much longer/bigger than the 9mm's and yet be "underpowered" compared to the 9mm?

Is it because it's just a .375mag case+bullet with "less powder" in it? (or padding)

Were the revolver cartridges developed earlier, and the size of the chamber standardized, and when autos were invented, they needed a smaller case to feed reliably? Were the powders in the earlier revolver days less "fast burning" than the auto powders?

I've never seen the higher-power auto rounds (e.g. 10mm, .375SIG, .45Super or .400CorBon) in person, but are they pretty much the same size, just shorter and wider than the .375mag/.44mag cases, leading to the same amount of powder? Or are there actually different kinds of powder?

Thanks for your help!

-Jon
 
Sir;
Too many questions to answer on a board.There
is a very good book out called cartridges of the world.Check your local gun shops or book stores.This book gives dimensions on most cartridges and a little on the devolopment.The subject of sizes(cases)is a hard one because many where devoloped in the black powder days.Hope this will help a little.It will at least give you a lot of information in one book.
beemerb
 
The .38 spl. started out as a blackpowder cartridge. A much greater volume of blackpowder is required to achieve the same balistic results as modern smokeless powders. Manufacturers could cut the size of the case down to a lenght that is shorter than the 9mm. However, then someone would want to stick one in an old .38 S&W or .38 Long Colt and blow it up.
 
You mean my snubbie could be quite a bit shoter overall, but they don't want to make it that way because of concern over the idiots of the world? Let evolution progress, stop protecting the idiots. I would LOVE to have my .38 snubbie be almost 1/2 inch shorter overall, if they shortened the cylindar and made the .38 Special bullet much shorter.
On that note, to keep things easier (it is so tough to redesign cartridges it seems), they need to come out with a lightweight 9mm snubbie. More power than the .38 snubbie and shorter, hence more concealable.
 
Ok

I believe the .38 Special is quite a bit older than the 9mm. After all, the .38 is a revolver cartridge. I'm guessing the powder back when the .38 was designed was a little less efficient. I think the .38 is shorter than the .357 Mag (not .375 Mag). The 9mm is actually .355 in. But a much faster round than the ,38 Spl.

See ya,
Ben
 
*laugh* Pardon the .357/.375 slip...

I don't know what I was thinking (except that I've never shot a .357 OR a .375)...

:p

-Jon
 
Maximum pressures for the .38 Special average somewhere between 16,500 to 17,500 C.U.P. The maximum pressures for the 9mm Parabellum average somewhere between 31,000 to 33,000 C.U.P. (Copper Units of Pressure). Smaller case, but higher pressures. I took this from the Lyman Reloading Handbook.
 
One thing to remember is that cartridges like the 9mm and .45acp were designed for automatic pistols. Cartridge length was limited to what would fit in a grip you could still get your hand around. I've heard of .357mag automatics, but have never seen one. I hope it was a single stack.

[This message has been edited by Sport45 (edited October 14, 1999).]
 
If you just want to shorten the cylinder you gain nothing. To shorten the whole firearm you must shorten the frame. This would mean all new lockwork. This means the expenditure of large quantities of $$$$$$.
Won't happen.
Cat
 
I've asked this question before elsewhere and never got a reply as to whether there is a lot of air space under the bullet of a modern .38 spl as a result of it now using modern smokeless powders. I can remember how surprised I was that a lot of people who I regarded as knowledgable on all things guns didn't seem to know the answer to what I thought were simple questions.

------------------
Mike H
 
Mike H --

Do you think it's possible to yank out the bullet of a .38spl and not have it go off such as to just take a look at inside?

I wonder...

-Jon
 
There is usually a large amount of air space inside of 38 special or 357 magnum rounds. If you shake one back and forth you can hear the powder moving inside the case. I have never been able to hear the powder in a 9mm case... I don't think there is ever enough airspace to allow much movement. If you want to disassemble a loaded round, the best way is to use an impact bullet puller. If you aren't too picky about the results, you could just pry the bullet out with two pairs of pliers. Don't touch the primer, wear safety goggles, and watch out for the spilled powder.
 
Black powder is the answer. The 38 Special was developed for black powder. The 45acp, 9mm Parabellum and other semi-auto cases were developed for smokeless powders. Some (like the 9mm) were developed for much higher pressures. Usually for lighter faster bullets. Comparing a 38 Special to a 9mm is like comparing apples and oranges. If you limit the 9mm to lower pressures 9like a 38 Special) or build a gun to stand the high pressure of the 9mm in 38 Special, it's a whole new ball game. In a way, that's what you get with a 357 Magnum. Higher pressure, more velocity, and it will leave a 9mm in the shade. But it requires a larger gun. Reddog
 
Hologon,

Jeez what a great idea, why didn't I think of that. Maybe it's because I don't know what the hell I'm doing and could blow my face off,

I wonder.....

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Mike H
 
Mike H,
To answer your question, yes there is quite a bit of air space in a standard .38 Spcl. The amount obviously depends on the powder used, but the case is seldom completely filled or the powder compressed.

Actually hologons suggestion isn't off the wall at all. It is quite safe to pull a bullet. First put on your safety glasses. If you don't need to keep the bullet, just grab it with a pair of pliers and holding the case with your fingers, wiggle it around a little to loosen the crimp. It will eventually come out with a little force. If you do want to keep the bullet, get one of the 'kinetic' bullet pullers. The first time you use one, your heart will beat a little faster. But after you've pulled a couple hundred, you'll just hit the hell out of it without a second thought. Oh, and did I mention to wear your safety glasses?
 
Thanks Mal,

Listen I'm just happy I finally found out the easy way that there is air space in a .38, I'm sure everything you said about extracting bullets is right on the money, but I don't tinker with stuff and I haven't invested in reloading equipment yet, I've always wondered what a nuclear reactor looks like from the inside but I have no immediate plans to pull the lid off one of those yet either. One of the earlier responses does make me think about the whole issue of shrinking the .38 round to make more concealable guns yet with the same power, I know there are many practical reasons why this would be a bad and potentially dangerous move, but it seems like the basis of a good idea.

Best,

------------------
Mike H
 
"I've always wondered what a nuclear reactor looks like from the inside..."
I done that too. It's not all that exciting after a while. You just have to be sure it's down, otherwise it is very exciting! We would scram the reactor, the guy with the least exposure that month (usually me) would sprint in, grab the experiment being irradiated and sprint out. You usually don't have a lot of time with the half-life of some elements. So I guess pulling bullets is childs play!

Always remember - death is just natures way of telling you to take it easy.
 
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