Revolvers, like any type of weapon, have their limitations. They are bulkier and more difficult to conceal compared to a similar-caliber auto, due to the cylinder. Revolvers lack the ammo capacity of autos. They have lots of openings to admit dirt & mud. In extreme conditions, they are less reliable. This is easy to prove. Take a cigar box with a handful of fine, dry sand in it. Add one revolver, close and shake vigorously. When you try to fire that revolver, the cylinder will freeze up because the cylinder bearing is full of crud. Be advised you'll need to strip down the bearing and clean it in solvent to fix your revolver, probably meaning a visit to the gunsmith. Try this same thing with a Glock or M1911, and the worst thing that will happen is the slide may not return to battery after the first shot. A sharp rap on the back of the slide with the heel of your hand will solve this. Another extreme environment problem is your weapon icing up. If you are in a nice warm room and then go outside into very cold temperatures, condensation will immediatley form on your handgun. If it's really cold outside, it will quickly freeze. It doesn't take much ice to freeze up a revolver cylinder, rendering it useless. The ice on an auto will shatter with the first shot, causing no problems. You can try this for yourself with a spray bottle of water and your freezer. With weakly-crimped ammo (like Glasers, where a strong crimp would crush the fragile bullet), recoil can cause the unfired bullets to move forward in their case and protrude from the front of the cylinder, catching on the frame and jamming the cylinder. These are some of the reasons that military orgs changed from revolvers to autos. Revolvers have their advantages, too. They are dead simple to operate, can be stored loaded & ready to shoot with all springs relaxed, can use low-powered ammo without worrying about functioning, and can handle magnum-level calibers in a less bulky package. The can take odd-shaped bullets (like full wadcutters) without feeding issues. Again, you just need to consider your application, and the strengths and weaknesses of the weapon your considering, and choose accordingly.
Revolver strengths & weaknesses
- Thread starter Ought Six
- Start date
ought-six, good listing of the pros/cons of each weapon type. Nothing is guaranteed that is for sure. Extreme cold effects alot of things mechanical. On a duck hunt on Long Island last January my Remington 11-87 became a single shot due to the cold(they had a one day cold snap you wouldn't believe, the coldest I've been in is -50 and at the temp not too much works) I guess you can only do what you can only do and hope things go your way should the situation demands using your gun in those kind of extreme conditions. Guaranteeing any gun will always fire is like saying this ship is unsinkable. Thanks for reminding us nothing is perfect, even revolvers.
VictorLouis
New member
I think that the 'cold' issue is a bit of a stretch. Chuck Taylor tested several classic handguns by firing them(heats up), reloading, then dropping them into the snow. They were allowed to freeze up, and they were then picked up to repeat the process. The N-frame (M27?) had NO malfs.
Certainly extreme muck, or sand immersion is an issue, but one that is no stranger to a retired MO trooper that I've conversed with. Reliability in that enviroment is WHY he continued to carry an N-frame .357, among other reasons. He personally had his gun immersed in swamp muck on a search/pursuit, and it still fired when needed. Granted, an N-frame is hell-for-stout; but, are its little parts and bearing surfaces THAT dramatically different than the Ks and Ls?
Certainly extreme muck, or sand immersion is an issue, but one that is no stranger to a retired MO trooper that I've conversed with. Reliability in that enviroment is WHY he continued to carry an N-frame .357, among other reasons. He personally had his gun immersed in swamp muck on a search/pursuit, and it still fired when needed. Granted, an N-frame is hell-for-stout; but, are its little parts and bearing surfaces THAT dramatically different than the Ks and Ls?
I think you have that backwards: condensation forms when you take a cold object into a warm, moist atmosphere. Now, if you were to go back outside into the cold after the wator vapor from indoors had condensed onto your cold revolver, then you'd have a problem with freezing.
Robert the41MagFan
New member
Auto's suffer from one huge problem that to this day they cannot overcome. Lack of power compared to a big bore. Autos are also more complex, have numerous malfunction possibilities and create a false sense of security with the use of high capacity magazines.
Dropped a revolver in volcanic pumice one day while hiking, washed it in a glacier filled creek and it fired all six round with no problems what so ever. In the "Real World", revolvers are simpler and more reliable than automitics. Last time I checked, wasn't living in a cigar box full of dirt.
Robert
Dropped a revolver in volcanic pumice one day while hiking, washed it in a glacier filled creek and it fired all six round with no problems what so ever. In the "Real World", revolvers are simpler and more reliable than automitics. Last time I checked, wasn't living in a cigar box full of dirt.
Robert
Hi, Ought Six and guys.
I can't help but wonder if you have actually tried the sand box test. I have and revolvers pass at least as well as autos if not heavily oiled. Colt and S&W revolvers are rather surprisingly well sealed since the "innards" are blocked by the hammer on top and the trigger on the bottom. Grit can get into the ratchet area but it will rarely prevent the cylinder from turning. The cylinder arbor is pretty well sealed and rarely will get in enough grit to prevent cylinder rotation. Autoloaders will get grit in the slide rails and in the grip safety area (if there is a grip safety). If the chamber is loaded, the first shot will usually go, but the gun will usually not cycle fully until the grit is cleaned out or ground up by cycling manually.
I have not subjected the Glock or any of the other later pistols to this type of test, but I assume this has been done and I will accept the results of any tests that have been made.
Jim
I can't help but wonder if you have actually tried the sand box test. I have and revolvers pass at least as well as autos if not heavily oiled. Colt and S&W revolvers are rather surprisingly well sealed since the "innards" are blocked by the hammer on top and the trigger on the bottom. Grit can get into the ratchet area but it will rarely prevent the cylinder from turning. The cylinder arbor is pretty well sealed and rarely will get in enough grit to prevent cylinder rotation. Autoloaders will get grit in the slide rails and in the grip safety area (if there is a grip safety). If the chamber is loaded, the first shot will usually go, but the gun will usually not cycle fully until the grit is cleaned out or ground up by cycling manually.
I have not subjected the Glock or any of the other later pistols to this type of test, but I assume this has been done and I will accept the results of any tests that have been made.
Jim
Back in the 1970's when the military started looking for a pistol to replace the 1911 the Air Force issued S&W M15 was included in the first round of tests. It did very well in accuracy and suprisingly well in the mud and dust tests. The revolvers downfall from a military point of view was difficulty in repair and firepower.
One of the biggest reasons I like to carry a revolver for self defense is the reliability issue. A revolver doesn't limp wrist. While most people have no problem with this happening at the range, it can be a serious problem when you are being shot at. A revolver is also better at very close range where physical contact with an agressor is possible. The only real disadvantages I see to the revolver is it's slightly slower to reload and usually cannot be fired as quickly at longer ranges. For self defense use you cannot beat a good revolver.
People tend to not believe me but I have had more reliability problems with revolvers than with semiautos (1911s & Glocks).
I used to compete in practical pistol matches with revolvers (S&W M-24 and M-25). Both required cleaning between stages to get through a whole match. The 1959 vintage Government Model I was shooting at the same time would go through several matches without cleaning or malfunction. Both revolvers and the auto were shooting lead alloy reloads.
When people tell me revolvers are more reliable than autos I just smile. Arguing doesn't do any good and they don't believe me anyway.
I used to compete in practical pistol matches with revolvers (S&W M-24 and M-25). Both required cleaning between stages to get through a whole match. The 1959 vintage Government Model I was shooting at the same time would go through several matches without cleaning or malfunction. Both revolvers and the auto were shooting lead alloy reloads.
When people tell me revolvers are more reliable than autos I just smile. Arguing doesn't do any good and they don't believe me anyway.
Well I'm on the revolver forum so that can only mean one thing!
Have owned/own a Browning HP, Glock-21, Glock-30 and a Taurus 617SS2C.
I've shot others: Colt Commanders, Gold Cup's, 92F's, AMT Backup's, S&W Chief Special's, S&W Airweights, Charter Arm's, and of course all manner of Tauri.
But I'll say this, after all the rounds of 9mm and .45 I've put through my semi-auto's the most reliable and accurate hands down was the Browning HP.
I do not "limp wrist", and I have found that my Glock-21 (though not the 30) will often suffer a mis-feed ~50 rounds or so. Why? The magazines. Problem solved. For now.
However after I went to some schooling in the proper use of the pistol for self-defense I was surprised to see the instructor using a wheelgun.
When I was looking for the perfect CCW piece, I fought long and hard (Kimber's, Kahr's, Makarov's, and even Kel-Tec's) for the "right" piece.
A friend of mine asked why didn't I consider a revolver?
"WHAM"! It hit me. Why not? Never suffered a mis-fire or a mis-feed with one and with the right ammo and the right pistol I could get something that was reliable, would outlast me and could be carried comfortably on my ankle or IWB.
Love my Taurus, it does a fine job of keeping the shots downrange, it will digest anything that I throw at it and I know in a pinch, if my life were truly on the line I have 7 rounds of .357 to end the fight.
If I need more than that either I am in the wrong place and shouldn't be there or more likely it's my time to go...
Just my view from the cheap seats...
Jon
Have owned/own a Browning HP, Glock-21, Glock-30 and a Taurus 617SS2C.
I've shot others: Colt Commanders, Gold Cup's, 92F's, AMT Backup's, S&W Chief Special's, S&W Airweights, Charter Arm's, and of course all manner of Tauri.
But I'll say this, after all the rounds of 9mm and .45 I've put through my semi-auto's the most reliable and accurate hands down was the Browning HP.
I do not "limp wrist", and I have found that my Glock-21 (though not the 30) will often suffer a mis-feed ~50 rounds or so. Why? The magazines. Problem solved. For now.
However after I went to some schooling in the proper use of the pistol for self-defense I was surprised to see the instructor using a wheelgun.
When I was looking for the perfect CCW piece, I fought long and hard (Kimber's, Kahr's, Makarov's, and even Kel-Tec's) for the "right" piece.
A friend of mine asked why didn't I consider a revolver?
"WHAM"! It hit me. Why not? Never suffered a mis-fire or a mis-feed with one and with the right ammo and the right pistol I could get something that was reliable, would outlast me and could be carried comfortably on my ankle or IWB.
Love my Taurus, it does a fine job of keeping the shots downrange, it will digest anything that I throw at it and I know in a pinch, if my life were truly on the line I have 7 rounds of .357 to end the fight.
If I need more than that either I am in the wrong place and shouldn't be there or more likely it's my time to go...
Just my view from the cheap seats...
Jon
Well lets look at my choices. I have a Combat Commander and a Kimber Ultra CDP (which is my normal summertime carry gun). Both hold eight rounds of .45 ACP (reloading the mag after chambering). My normal winter carry gun is the 627PC. Eight rounds of .357 Mag. Reload time (using moon clips) is comparable to the semi-autos. I find it as easy to conceal (grip is smaller than either 1911 pattern gun). It is heavier. But at 270 I don't notice an extra pound that much. I do have a couple of other N frame five inchers that would fit the holster for the 627 but they both only offer six rounds. Of course one is .44-40 and the other is .45 Colt. With the right loads either would meet or exceed the .45 ACP round. Particularly in the three inch barreled Kimber. Over the years I've found that the semi's are more ammo sensitive (both power level and bullet shape) and the revolvers require a bit more care in cleaning and such. As far as reliability, properly cared for I trust either one completely. And with the revolvers I don't worry about mag lips getting bent. (not to mention picking up brass at the range)
juliet charley
New member
I originally posted this on General Handguns. I probably fits better in this string.
I always thought the ultimate test of reliability would be for the tester to lay on his back in the floorboard of a car with a 200 - 250 sack on his chest into which he is to jam his handgun as hard as he can (into the sack) and pull the trigger five times. If the weapon fires, five times, it is reliable.
The scenario (flat on your back in tight quarters with a large bad guy on your chest) is not unrealistic though it is probably worst case. In terms on likelihood, it is probably a whole lot more realistic than being attacked by multiple who assailants who use good tactics and are not afraid to take casualties (a favourite scenario of automatic fans who like high capacity magazines and fast reloads).
I always thought the ultimate test of reliability would be for the tester to lay on his back in the floorboard of a car with a 200 - 250 sack on his chest into which he is to jam his handgun as hard as he can (into the sack) and pull the trigger five times. If the weapon fires, five times, it is reliable.
The scenario (flat on your back in tight quarters with a large bad guy on your chest) is not unrealistic though it is probably worst case. In terms on likelihood, it is probably a whole lot more realistic than being attacked by multiple who assailants who use good tactics and are not afraid to take casualties (a favourite scenario of automatic fans who like high capacity magazines and fast reloads).
Ought Six, well, I live in MN, where cold weather was invented, tested, refined and is in full-effect.
I've NEVER had a revolver "freeze up".
I also don't lube any revolver with axle grease.
THAT, grease or heavy oil, is much more likely to bind up the action than a little frost.
Have you actually had a revolver "freeze up"?
Or, are you just imagining that it is something that could happen?
When living in a cold environment, one needs to pick gun lubes carefully. Just like someone living in a desert region.
Pick a very thin oil, like sewing machine oil, or better yet, go with one of the dry lubricants.
To just use some general-purpose 3in1 household oil is just plain irresponsible.
(I'm NOT saying that is what you chose, just that that wouldn't be a good choice.)
Dave T, you mentioned that a M24 and a M25 had to be cleaned during a match just to get thru it, could you be more specific?
What was wrong?
Would the gun no longer fire?
Was accuracy falling off?
Was the cylinder beginning to bind?
If the gun just won't run anymore, that is a big problem, but if we are talking about combat reliability, there is a big difference between a revolver not making it thru an entire cylinder, and one that gets gooey after a hundred rounds are shot during a competition.
Most revolver problems, in fact most pistol problems too, can be traced to dirty ammo.
With proper ammo, a revolver can go hundreds of rounds before it needs cleaning in order to function.
As a matter of fact, I once tried to see how long it would take a M10 from 1955 to bind up.
I shot only 158gr LRN's and SWCHP's thru it, in warm weather, cold weather, snow, rain......
After five hundred rounds the gun was still working, although the cylinder was just starting to turn a bit slowly.
The gun looked so bad I gave up on the experiment and cleaned it. (Boy, was that a messy hour in the basement!)
Oh, and as for as a revolver being "much harder" to conceal than an auto?
Puhlease, someone needs to buy a quality holster.
I am six foot one, and about 150lbs. I have NO problem concealing a 2"-5" K-frame in either the appendix position, or behind the hip.
I personally know people that are about 6 foot and 180lbs that REGULARILY conceal a 3.5" N frame behind the hip.
It is all about the holster and your clothing.
Finally, Glaser's jumping the crimp?
Please.
Glaser's and Magsafe's use VERY light bullets, around 50-70grs, versus the standard 125-158grs of a lead bullet.
There is not much inertia there to cause crimp jumping.
I imagine it might possibly happen in one of those Ti snubby revolvers, but I've never ever heard of it happening in an alloy/steel or steel gun.
These are not flames, I just don't agree with what's been stated.
-Kframe
I've NEVER had a revolver "freeze up".
I also don't lube any revolver with axle grease.
THAT, grease or heavy oil, is much more likely to bind up the action than a little frost.
Have you actually had a revolver "freeze up"?
Or, are you just imagining that it is something that could happen?
When living in a cold environment, one needs to pick gun lubes carefully. Just like someone living in a desert region.
Pick a very thin oil, like sewing machine oil, or better yet, go with one of the dry lubricants.
To just use some general-purpose 3in1 household oil is just plain irresponsible.
(I'm NOT saying that is what you chose, just that that wouldn't be a good choice.)
Dave T, you mentioned that a M24 and a M25 had to be cleaned during a match just to get thru it, could you be more specific?
What was wrong?
Would the gun no longer fire?
Was accuracy falling off?
Was the cylinder beginning to bind?
If the gun just won't run anymore, that is a big problem, but if we are talking about combat reliability, there is a big difference between a revolver not making it thru an entire cylinder, and one that gets gooey after a hundred rounds are shot during a competition.
Most revolver problems, in fact most pistol problems too, can be traced to dirty ammo.
With proper ammo, a revolver can go hundreds of rounds before it needs cleaning in order to function.
As a matter of fact, I once tried to see how long it would take a M10 from 1955 to bind up.
I shot only 158gr LRN's and SWCHP's thru it, in warm weather, cold weather, snow, rain......
After five hundred rounds the gun was still working, although the cylinder was just starting to turn a bit slowly.
The gun looked so bad I gave up on the experiment and cleaned it. (Boy, was that a messy hour in the basement!)
Oh, and as for as a revolver being "much harder" to conceal than an auto?
Puhlease, someone needs to buy a quality holster.
I am six foot one, and about 150lbs. I have NO problem concealing a 2"-5" K-frame in either the appendix position, or behind the hip.
I personally know people that are about 6 foot and 180lbs that REGULARILY conceal a 3.5" N frame behind the hip.
It is all about the holster and your clothing.
Finally, Glaser's jumping the crimp?
Please.
Glaser's and Magsafe's use VERY light bullets, around 50-70grs, versus the standard 125-158grs of a lead bullet.
There is not much inertia there to cause crimp jumping.
I imagine it might possibly happen in one of those Ti snubby revolvers, but I've never ever heard of it happening in an alloy/steel or steel gun.
These are not flames, I just don't agree with what's been stated.
-Kframe
Response to all
The person I knew that had the revolver freezing problems worked for Aleska, the Alaska pipeline company, and carried a .44 mag for bear protection (the company required all outside workers leaving protected areas to carry, .357 mag minimum). There was nothing 'imaginary' about it. He was in and out of buildings a lot, and that is probably a much more extreme climate than most of us have to worry about. Anyways, he sold the revolver and got a .44 mag Desert Eagle, which he said would fire when iced up.
As for the dirt test, I saw that in SWAT magazine quite a while ago. I tried it with my Glock 27, and it performed as I described. I couldn't get anyone to volunteer a revolver for that test, though. I can think of several environments where blowing fine grit is a daily fact of life. Hours of that, day after day, is much more severe than dropping a revolver in the dirt and quickly washing it off.
I'm not trying to trash revolvers, just trying to make sure that we all understand the weaknesses of that particular system. Best you be aware of them, so they don't catch you by suprise at a critical moment.
The person I knew that had the revolver freezing problems worked for Aleska, the Alaska pipeline company, and carried a .44 mag for bear protection (the company required all outside workers leaving protected areas to carry, .357 mag minimum). There was nothing 'imaginary' about it. He was in and out of buildings a lot, and that is probably a much more extreme climate than most of us have to worry about. Anyways, he sold the revolver and got a .44 mag Desert Eagle, which he said would fire when iced up.
As for the dirt test, I saw that in SWAT magazine quite a while ago. I tried it with my Glock 27, and it performed as I described. I couldn't get anyone to volunteer a revolver for that test, though. I can think of several environments where blowing fine grit is a daily fact of life. Hours of that, day after day, is much more severe than dropping a revolver in the dirt and quickly washing it off.
I'm not trying to trash revolvers, just trying to make sure that we all understand the weaknesses of that particular system. Best you be aware of them, so they don't catch you by suprise at a critical moment.
Ought Six,
My company, a few years back, did some training videos for the US Army. In an effort for realism this included actors in full battle dress. The "officer" had a M92 Beretta in a standard web belt holster. The filming was done at the Indiana Dunes State Park (real sand dunes, off Lake Michigan). By the end of the day (no firing of any guns, just a lot of running around jumping in and out of "emplacements" and "foxholes") the Beretta was totally frozen up with sand. Took me about three hours and a rubber mallet to finally get the slide freed up enough to disassemble and clean. But then I never understood just how the open topped slide design ever passed the various Mil-Spec tests anyway. I have had semi's fail to fire in extreme cold weather unless all lubrication was removed and replaced with "dri-slide". If you expect them to work for any length of time there has to be some type of lube on the slide mechanism. On the other hand I have seen revolvers work normally with NO lubrication (not recommended - but the gun will function reliably). Extreme conditions can cause problems with ANY gun, the only cure is for the operator to take all proper actions, including wiping things down on a regular basis. Revovler actions are relatively fragile, but then a lot of the new DA semi actions are pretty similiar, and not as well sealed. If you want to compare a revolver to a 1911, make the revolver a SAA.
My company, a few years back, did some training videos for the US Army. In an effort for realism this included actors in full battle dress. The "officer" had a M92 Beretta in a standard web belt holster. The filming was done at the Indiana Dunes State Park (real sand dunes, off Lake Michigan). By the end of the day (no firing of any guns, just a lot of running around jumping in and out of "emplacements" and "foxholes") the Beretta was totally frozen up with sand. Took me about three hours and a rubber mallet to finally get the slide freed up enough to disassemble and clean. But then I never understood just how the open topped slide design ever passed the various Mil-Spec tests anyway. I have had semi's fail to fire in extreme cold weather unless all lubrication was removed and replaced with "dri-slide". If you expect them to work for any length of time there has to be some type of lube on the slide mechanism. On the other hand I have seen revolvers work normally with NO lubrication (not recommended - but the gun will function reliably). Extreme conditions can cause problems with ANY gun, the only cure is for the operator to take all proper actions, including wiping things down on a regular basis. Revovler actions are relatively fragile, but then a lot of the new DA semi actions are pretty similiar, and not as well sealed. If you want to compare a revolver to a 1911, make the revolver a SAA.