Don't have a lot of firearm experience, please help, talking strictly stub nose revolvers, man at gun shop told me that when comparing 38 vs 357 cal. of the same minimum barrel length there is very little difference because the 357 will waste much of it's powder when fired due to short length of barrel, is this true ? ......................................................Thanx mrtom
Revolver Question
- Thread starter mrtom
- Start date
I don't believe that statement is entirely accurate.To answer your question, gunpowder burn rates, though they do vary, all burn blindingly fast. Rest assured that all of it is burned by the time that slug starts moving down the barrel -- doesn't matter if it's a .22 or a .50cal.
Now when you get into terminal ballistics between .38 vs .357, you'll find that the .357 has a better "one shot stop" street record, specifically with the .357 Magnum. I'm going to try and avoid starting a caliber war here, but to sum it up, the .357Mag is more powerful than a .38. That's not to say that the .38 is weak. Many people load up their .357 magnums with .38+p ammo for easier recoil control and less muzzle flash. .38Special ammunition is ballistically very similar to 9mm Luger ammunition, if that means anything to you.
A .357 slug coming out of a snubbie is ballistically more lethal than a .38 slug coming out of a snubbie, but either one will kill. Just pick the one you can handle best.
Now when you get into terminal ballistics between .38 vs .357, you'll find that the .357 has a better "one shot stop" street record, specifically with the .357 Magnum. I'm going to try and avoid starting a caliber war here, but to sum it up, the .357Mag is more powerful than a .38. That's not to say that the .38 is weak. Many people load up their .357 magnums with .38+p ammo for easier recoil control and less muzzle flash. .38Special ammunition is ballistically very similar to 9mm Luger ammunition, if that means anything to you.
A .357 slug coming out of a snubbie is ballistically more lethal than a .38 slug coming out of a snubbie, but either one will kill. Just pick the one you can handle best.
Ronny,
It is NOT just when the gunpowder burns that velocity peaks but when the gases stop expanding. The gases DON'T stop expanding (pushing on the bullet to accelerate it faster) until well down the barrel. The ubiquitous .22 LR maxes out velocity in about 16-18 inches of barrel. A 4" gun barrel normally yields more velocity than the same cartridge in a 2" barrel, likewise a 6" barrel normally more than 4" barrel, etc. until the gases stop expanding and pushing hard enough on the bullet base to continue acceleration. The limit in barrel length required for the max velocity depends on the caliber, barrel length, case capacity, and pressure level of load among other factors.
Good shooting and be safe.
LB
ps: Gun powders don't always burn completely in short barrels either. Why do you suppose unburned powder granules are shot out of the barrel with loads using "slow" powders in short barrels?
It is NOT just when the gunpowder burns that velocity peaks but when the gases stop expanding. The gases DON'T stop expanding (pushing on the bullet to accelerate it faster) until well down the barrel. The ubiquitous .22 LR maxes out velocity in about 16-18 inches of barrel. A 4" gun barrel normally yields more velocity than the same cartridge in a 2" barrel, likewise a 6" barrel normally more than 4" barrel, etc. until the gases stop expanding and pushing hard enough on the bullet base to continue acceleration. The limit in barrel length required for the max velocity depends on the caliber, barrel length, case capacity, and pressure level of load among other factors.
Good shooting and be safe.
LB
ps: Gun powders don't always burn completely in short barrels either. Why do you suppose unburned powder granules are shot out of the barrel with loads using "slow" powders in short barrels?
I'd say off hand that the guy at the gun shop probably had a glut of .38 specials he needed to unload, . . . or he figured you for a newbie and got a chuckle out of your inexperience.
Either way, . . . I'd find another gun shop, . . . as he clearly does not know whereof he speaks. True, . . . in a snubbie, . . . you will not develop the max velocity, . . . but you can rest assured as Ronny said, . . . the .357 will certainly whack the target a lot harder.
If you want to prove this, . . . go to a range, . . . rent a short barreled .357 and load it up .38, .357, .38, .357, etc, . . . it won't take you long at all to tell which one is which.
But again, . . . as it is often stressed, . . . caliber always has to take a rear seat to bullet placement. A well placed .22 will do more to stop a bg than 6 near misses with a S&W .500.
May God bless,
Dwight
Either way, . . . I'd find another gun shop, . . . as he clearly does not know whereof he speaks. True, . . . in a snubbie, . . . you will not develop the max velocity, . . . but you can rest assured as Ronny said, . . . the .357 will certainly whack the target a lot harder.
If you want to prove this, . . . go to a range, . . . rent a short barreled .357 and load it up .38, .357, .38, .357, etc, . . . it won't take you long at all to tell which one is which.
But again, . . . as it is often stressed, . . . caliber always has to take a rear seat to bullet placement. A well placed .22 will do more to stop a bg than 6 near misses with a S&W .500.
May God bless,
Dwight
MrTom
As the owner of a .357 snub, I can tell you it aint a lot of fun to shoot. Hand held rocket launcher comes to mind. To shoot this caliber you need a gun with some heft to it. You can do it, it's just not fun. I can also tell you that a 38spl revolver will shoot 38spl ammunition better and more accurately than a .357 can. The travel distance from the chamber to the barrel is less. Of course it depends on the gun, but that's what I've seen. So if you can get a deal on a 38, don't overlook it because you think it's a sissy gun.
Why don't you go to range, or with a friend, and shoot some .357 and some 38 and see what you prefer. For me, shooting the 38+p is routine shooting. Shooting .357 is an "event". Being comforable with ones chosen caliber is very important. I'm sure most here would agree.
As the owner of a .357 snub, I can tell you it aint a lot of fun to shoot. Hand held rocket launcher comes to mind. To shoot this caliber you need a gun with some heft to it. You can do it, it's just not fun. I can also tell you that a 38spl revolver will shoot 38spl ammunition better and more accurately than a .357 can. The travel distance from the chamber to the barrel is less. Of course it depends on the gun, but that's what I've seen. So if you can get a deal on a 38, don't overlook it because you think it's a sissy gun.
Why don't you go to range, or with a friend, and shoot some .357 and some 38 and see what you prefer. For me, shooting the 38+p is routine shooting. Shooting .357 is an "event". Being comforable with ones chosen caliber is very important. I'm sure most here would agree.
LHB1,
16-18 inches of barrel? We are referring to a .38 vs .357 out of a 2'' pistol barrel. Another 2'' of barrel won't make much of a difference in muzzle velocity for a pistol, and a .357 slug is in no way made less potent in short barrel revolvers.
As for powder burn, the powder in that cartridge is burned up the moment it is ignited and creates a pulse of expanding gas -- not a stream of gas or a wave of gas, a single pulse which doesn't get any stronger. That pulse of gas (no longer burning gunpowder) pushes the bullet through the barrel and exits with it. A longer barrel doesn't increase the amount of pressure, though it allows the bullet to accelerate under that pressure for a little longer. Thus there is an optimal length of barrel depending on caliber under which the bullet receives optimum work from the expanding gases of the propellant before friction with the barrel actually does negative work and slows down the bullet before it reaches the end of the muzzle.
And, no, the gases don't stop expanding until they reach the same pressure of our atmosphere (e.g. not until long after that bullet as left the barrel because the gases aren't exposed to the atmosphere until they leave the barrel).
BTW, what is the difference in muzzle velocity out of a 2'' barrel and a 4'' barrel for a .357 magnum? 10 feet per second? There isn't a whole lot of difference. Chrono it yourself and see.
16-18 inches of barrel? We are referring to a .38 vs .357 out of a 2'' pistol barrel. Another 2'' of barrel won't make much of a difference in muzzle velocity for a pistol, and a .357 slug is in no way made less potent in short barrel revolvers.
As for powder burn, the powder in that cartridge is burned up the moment it is ignited and creates a pulse of expanding gas -- not a stream of gas or a wave of gas, a single pulse which doesn't get any stronger. That pulse of gas (no longer burning gunpowder) pushes the bullet through the barrel and exits with it. A longer barrel doesn't increase the amount of pressure, though it allows the bullet to accelerate under that pressure for a little longer. Thus there is an optimal length of barrel depending on caliber under which the bullet receives optimum work from the expanding gases of the propellant before friction with the barrel actually does negative work and slows down the bullet before it reaches the end of the muzzle.
And, no, the gases don't stop expanding until they reach the same pressure of our atmosphere (e.g. not until long after that bullet as left the barrel because the gases aren't exposed to the atmosphere until they leave the barrel).
BTW, what is the difference in muzzle velocity out of a 2'' barrel and a 4'' barrel for a .357 magnum? 10 feet per second? There isn't a whole lot of difference. Chrono it yourself and see.
Ronny,
I think we are saying the same thing in different words re expanding gas and accelerating bullets down barrel. We also agree that .357 would yield more power than .38 in same length barrel, even a snubby. The only thing I'm not too sure about is exactly when the powder is fully consumed. Some loads with very slow burning powder will eject unburned powder granules from the muzzle, clearly showing that not all powder is consumed instantly in the case before bullet begins movement.
Good shooting and be safe.
LB
I think we are saying the same thing in different words re expanding gas and accelerating bullets down barrel. We also agree that .357 would yield more power than .38 in same length barrel, even a snubby. The only thing I'm not too sure about is exactly when the powder is fully consumed. Some loads with very slow burning powder will eject unburned powder granules from the muzzle, clearly showing that not all powder is consumed instantly in the case before bullet begins movement.
Good shooting and be safe.
LB
'pends on the load. In my guns, and typical experiences as far as I've read, the same load is likely to be 30-50fps per inch--or 60-100 for 2"--faster in a 4" gun than a 2". Short barrel 357 does outdo 38, though not as much as long-barreled 357 outdoes 38. The crucial consideration, though, is that .38 snub velocities are just at--or below--the bottom end of what bullet makers need to make an expanding bullet function reliably. Using a 357 snub--though it is, indeed, a beast to shoot--puts you over the threshold into the ballistic territory where you don't have to question too much whether your bullet is going to work as intended. All you have to focus on is putting it in the right place.
Powders do burn at various rates and the slower burning powders will take longer to achieve peak pressures. Remember pressure has to build to reach it's peak and this can be seen if plotted on a linear scale. So a slow burning powder in a short barrel won't have time to reach it's peak pressure resulting in lower velocities and the great fireball when the burning gases exits the muzzle. This fireball is also burning powder and sometimes all this powder does not get a chance to completely burn. Loads developed for the shorter barrels use a faster burning powder. Burn some gunpowder and you will see that it doesn't all go up at once, but actually takes some time to be completely consumed.
The .38spl is not at the bottom of an expansion rate for bullet makers. Remember the same bullet is used in both the .38spl and the .357 mag. If the bullet is made to expand to quickly then the velocity of the .357 mag can cause the bullet to blow up on contact. Remember that a bullet does not have to have a jacket. A fairly soft lead bullet expands nicely at low velocities and have always performed excellently in short barreled .38spl revolvers. The same bullet can violently expand in a .357 mag and have limited penetration. The new Gold Dot bullet is an example of a thin jacketed bullet designed to expand at .38 spl velocities in short barrels. This bullet is not used in .357 mag loads.
The .38spl is not at the bottom of an expansion rate for bullet makers. Remember the same bullet is used in both the .38spl and the .357 mag. If the bullet is made to expand to quickly then the velocity of the .357 mag can cause the bullet to blow up on contact. Remember that a bullet does not have to have a jacket. A fairly soft lead bullet expands nicely at low velocities and have always performed excellently in short barreled .38spl revolvers. The same bullet can violently expand in a .357 mag and have limited penetration. The new Gold Dot bullet is an example of a thin jacketed bullet designed to expand at .38 spl velocities in short barrels. This bullet is not used in .357 mag loads.
I agree with you completely LHB1. The .357 mag doesnt usually reach its full potential until about 18 inches of barrel, but that's obviously not really practical.
Jkwas, why don't you like to shoot the .357 snubbie? I'm only 16, but my father has a Smith & Wesson model 66. I love shooting that thing! Even with the 2.5 inch barrel it's more accurate then I will probably ever be. I think the recoil of the .357 with hydrashocks or some other nice warm loads is great fun! He let his friend shoot it once about 2 months ago. His friend tried holding it like he does with his Beretta, about 12 inches from his face. The hammer nearly tagged him in the forehead. Hehe! It's a gun you like to have a firm grip on.
I would love the chance to try out a .44 mag. THAT would be fun!
Jkwas, why don't you like to shoot the .357 snubbie? I'm only 16, but my father has a Smith & Wesson model 66. I love shooting that thing! Even with the 2.5 inch barrel it's more accurate then I will probably ever be. I think the recoil of the .357 with hydrashocks or some other nice warm loads is great fun! He let his friend shoot it once about 2 months ago. His friend tried holding it like he does with his Beretta, about 12 inches from his face. The hammer nearly tagged him in the forehead. Hehe! It's a gun you like to have a firm grip on.
I would love the chance to try out a .44 mag. THAT would be fun!
I don't want to imagine a .50 BMG snub nose. I am afraid if I do, someone will make it, and in Scandium to boot. Then people will want to know what grips to buy to reduce recoil, what porting works best, etc., etc.
For a rule of thumb, add/subtract 50 fps for every inch of barrel. IMHO, .38 Special is quite enough in most snubbies.
As someone mentioned on another forum, the gun shops are full of slightly used .357 S&W snubby lightweights, with a box of 47 rounds included.
Jim
For a rule of thumb, add/subtract 50 fps for every inch of barrel. IMHO, .38 Special is quite enough in most snubbies.
As someone mentioned on another forum, the gun shops are full of slightly used .357 S&W snubby lightweights, with a box of 47 rounds included.
Jim
CarbineCaleb
New member
The fireball at the muzzle is definitely the combustion of incompletely burned gunpowder - otherwise there wouldn't be any fireball (air alone doesn't burn). Yes there is a big fireball with a .357 snubby, and yes this does mean that a good bit of the cartridge potential is lost as muzzle blast.
However, if you look at the velocity figures, while a 2" .357 won't do what a 8" .357 will do (off by about 25% I'd say offhand), on the other hand, it still does a good sight better than a 2" .38 +P will do.
Of course, you can't just focus on velocity when choosing a best defense gun. So I'd also consider your ability to control the gun while shooting quickly. There is no way to max out ballistic impact and simultaneously max out speed and accuracy of delivery. It's a compromise between these competing objectives. Everyone has a different idea of where the best point on the curve lies - no "right" answers.
However, if you look at the velocity figures, while a 2" .357 won't do what a 8" .357 will do (off by about 25% I'd say offhand), on the other hand, it still does a good sight better than a 2" .38 +P will do.
Of course, you can't just focus on velocity when choosing a best defense gun. So I'd also consider your ability to control the gun while shooting quickly. There is no way to max out ballistic impact and simultaneously max out speed and accuracy of delivery. It's a compromise between these competing objectives. Everyone has a different idea of where the best point on the curve lies - no "right" answers.
Simply put, a full-power or standard Magnum load out of a 2" barrel is similar to a +p 9mm load out of a 4" or service size 9mm pistol. The question isn't whether or not there is a difference in terminal performance but a matter of controlling the weapon. A snubby revolver is really hard to tame with standard Magnum loads. Either light Magnum or .38spl +p loads should be used to tame recoil and brutal muzzle flash. The vast majority of SD shootings happen in low-light situations.
CarbineCaleb
New member
.357 @ 1&7/8" = 9mm+P @ 4"???
I think cje1980 is right. Here is a link to tests of various ammo in various short barreled revolvers (1&7/8" - 3") by a S&W forum user with a chronograph. You'll see the numbers for 125 grain loads in .357 are just about what they are for 9mm +P in 125gr at 4" (124gr @1180fps). In fact, some of the snubby performances are closer to the standard 9mm (124 gr @1125 fps).
http://smith-wessonforum.com/groupe...pc&cdra=Y&s=884106832&m=345104017&f=695107034
I think cje1980 is right. Here is a link to tests of various ammo in various short barreled revolvers (1&7/8" - 3") by a S&W forum user with a chronograph. You'll see the numbers for 125 grain loads in .357 are just about what they are for 9mm +P in 125gr at 4" (124gr @1180fps). In fact, some of the snubby performances are closer to the standard 9mm (124 gr @1125 fps).
http://smith-wessonforum.com/groupe...pc&cdra=Y&s=884106832&m=345104017&f=695107034
You are going to hear this sooner or later, so why not sooner. The recoil from a .357 will be much greater than a .38 spc of same barrel length. You can overcome that, for the most part, by practicing with .38s in your .357 and loading it with the magnums for carry.
But one more thing...the .357, in addition to added recoil, has a lot of muzzle flip (understatement), and noise, and flash, compared to the .38. Something to consider if your plan is to defend yourself in close quarters. Someone mentioned on this forum discharging the magnum inside a car without ear protection at night to get a feel for what he could expect under actual conditions. I'm not saying I recommend you do that, but it does make you consider the subject more thoroughly. Btw, I believe the guy who did that claimed to be essentially deaf and blind for several minutes afterwards. It always comes down to the same question doesnt it?
"What do you want it for??"
But one more thing...the .357, in addition to added recoil, has a lot of muzzle flip (understatement), and noise, and flash, compared to the .38. Something to consider if your plan is to defend yourself in close quarters. Someone mentioned on this forum discharging the magnum inside a car without ear protection at night to get a feel for what he could expect under actual conditions. I'm not saying I recommend you do that, but it does make you consider the subject more thoroughly. Btw, I believe the guy who did that claimed to be essentially deaf and blind for several minutes afterwards. It always comes down to the same question doesnt it?
"What do you want it for??"
In "olden" days, .357 revolvers often, maybe mostly, had cylinders slightly longer than .38 cylinders, so the jump to the forcing cone was greater for a .38 fired in a .357 than a .38 fired in a .38. For a number of years that has not been the case with most, if not all, revolvers. Smith and Wesson went to the same length cylinder for .38s and .357 a number of years ago and Rugers are the same length also (though they offer few dedicated .38s). Perhaps there is some velocity/accuracy loss due to the little bit of "freebore" when a .38 is fired in a cylinder cut for .357 (I don't know) but accuracy loss due to the jump from cylinder to forcing cone is not an issue on recent revolvers. At least, I don't think so.