Revolver Double Tap, but How???

J

Jumpy

Inactive
The following incident was being discussed on a non-firearms related bulletin board. Appreciate any opinions from you boys.

"Some buds and I went shooting yesterday, and one of them brought his Taurus Raging Bull (.454 casull). After he took a few shots he offered me a crack at this monster. The first round went well, although it has a lot of recoil it was alright. Then things got worse, When I torched off the second round, somehow it double tapped itself, and sent two rounds down range, as in it fired out of battery. When we looked the gun over to see what had happened, we noticed that the cylinder guard (the metal behind the cylinder to hold the rounds in) had been bent back and metal had sheared off the inside. We figure that if the gun hadn't been as stout is it was I might not have walked away uninjured. All in all it was an experience I wouldn't reccomend."

There's more info which I'll retrieve and post. I only know how to do one cut & paste at a time.
 
Here's more info:

"Thanks for the concerns. We were shooting factory loads, and here's the weird part, the second round had been struck by the firing pin, so I'm assuming I got lucky and the second somehow made it down the barrel, so it probably wasn't as serious as it could've been. Both rounds were fired almost like a two round burst, and the rest of the rounds and casings were jammed tight in the cylinder and had to be forced out. I've shot rounds kinda quick in a single action pistol, but not a big @ss revolver with a heavy trigger pull, also I'm used to shooting 40's and 45's so the recoil really wasn't really an issue. The big question is how was the gun damaged like that IF the round fired from battery? I've seen Taurus cylinders not line up perfectly with the barrel, and I'm wondering if this could've happened here. But then again how did it fire if I hadn't even released the trigger yet? The good news is the gun has a lifetime warranty, so my buddy is going to get it taken care of. I certianly would like to know just what happened. Maybe the recoil forced the hammer back enough to rotate the cylinder most of the way and drop on a live round, I wish I would've paid attention to where it struck the primer. Who knows?"
 
And finally:

"A little more info for ya all. It was a brand new revolver, #1 was round 6 and #2 was round 7 through the gun. As far as pucker factor goes, well I won't say that they aren't a little intimidating, but reports from my two other buds say I had the gun flat and in control when both rounds went off. I was leaning into the gun pretty heavily after I let the first round go and experienced the recoil. The damage to the guard was on the left side of the frame, which is even more discouraging to me since I'm a lefty. This whole thing is so weird that I don't think anyone will really know for certian what happened. All I know is this is twice I've seen/had problems with Taurus revolvers now, and from now on I think I'll pass on shooting them. As far as getting on one knee and thanking the lord, there are some sharp rocks in Arizona, but we did speak. And no I didn't need to change my shorts, but it did ruin the rest of my shooting day."

Sorry for my techno shortcomings, but appreciate any of your insights in figuring out how this occurred.
 
As Jack Benny used to say (or are you too young?) "I'm thinking, I'm thinking."

Are there any signs of a bullet on the frame in front of the cylinder as there would be if a bullet were fired into or past the frame? If not, then you are probably right that both bullets went down the barrel. But, as you say, how then did the frame boss get damaged?

Until they put a stronger spring on the cylinder stop, S&W Model 29's were pretty notorious for having the cylinder jump back one when fired, but that would not be the case here.

I'm thinking.

Jim
 
Wild guess.......a tad out of time, just enough to give the cylinder a bit of extra kick back toward the recoil plate...AND a high primer in the upper left cartridge....thus the sequence would be....pull trigger, proper round fire but nails the forcing cone off center giving a bit more punch back to the cylinder whick in turn ignites the cartridge with the high primer.

I think that might be what Jim K thinkin..........sorta.

It bein a five shot, there is a chance of the bullet from the one toward the side clearin the rest of the gun.

Anyhoo.....I'll hold out for high primer on the secondary discharge, coulda been the sole cause.........maby.

Sam.....thinkin hurts.
 
Sam, I've been to three county fairs and a hog-calling....

and I ain't never seen anything like that!

Cap and ball guns will "flash-over" and "chain-fire" if not greased. But how could one flash-over with cartridge ammunition? Sympathetic detonation? Then why don't all the Casulls and Linebaughs and HairyBangers do it?

I like the high primer theory. Except whenever I smack a high primer with a firing pin, it just fully seats the primer and won't go bang. (Murphy is alive!)

I'm thinking too.
 
Murphy is my co pilot.

I haven't personally had "doubles" in revolvers but know a couple who have had it happen.

I did have a slamfire with a springfield bolt action....just did lock up before goin off. Attributed to high primer cause the firing pin was fully retracted throughout the process and the primer extruded a bit into the firing pin hole. Issue gun and issue ammo.

Sam
 
Did #1 round have a punctured primer or any other evidence of gas leak? It is rare, but it has happened that pressure from a punctured primer has forced the hammer back and cycled the second round. The bent metal behind the cylinder makes me suspect some pressure gas came out the wrong end of the cartidge.

Tom
 
Could happen

Ron Power relayed this story to me. A fellow was out shooting with his girlfriend, she was a small girl in stature. She was shooting a Model 29 S&W revolver. As she was shooting, I believe the first shot or two she shot herself in the head. During the investigation the boyfriend said he believed the revolver fired twice at the time of the accident. After a lengthy investigation it was determined that she fired the first shot deliberately and under recoil she inadvertently cycled the gun trying to control recoil. As the muzzle, under recoil, approached her head the gun fired. I have personally seen large caliber revolvers do the same thing, of course without the catastrophic results. Being that chamber 6 and 7 were fired and had firing pin strikes on both primers this theory way may hold water. As far as the damage to the recoil sheild that is a bit of a mystery. I hope this helps.
God Bless
Jack Weigand
 
I missed the part about both primers havin strike marks. High primer went out the window.

I think Jack W got it right.

Sam
 
Hi, all. It's been a long time since I was last here, I guess I'll have to drop by more often, (too busy being Rivrrat over on FAL Files).

I'm the shooter in question, and believe me I'd love for JW's expalnation to be the right one as long as I didn't shoot myself in the head, but by all accounts, I had that gun level and in control even for the suprise round two. After the first time I shot it I intended to show that beast who was in control there. And me pulling the trigger twice and sending two clean rounds downrange wouldn't explain the damage to the left side of the frame. I'm thinking some kind of timing problem myself, but I don't think I'll ever know.

I'll say this, this is the first time I've had something like this happen to me, and I was/am planning on building an FAL, but now I'm thinking I'll have a smith build it to make sure it doesn't do something weird to me also.:(
 
Rivrrat - Did the hammer hit on the second of the double match the hit on the other 6 primers? Or was it off center? Was it lighter or heavier or different in any way?
 
You know, I just remembered I have the leftover rounds and spent brass since the gun in question flew down here from Seattle and he didn't want to take the ammo on the plane. I checked them and all but two appear to be identical. of the two that aren't they're both a bit off center, one has what seems to be a heavier strike and one seems to be lighter or equal to the others. Does this help? I don't know since I don't know what order they came out of the gun, and bear in mind 5 of the rounds went before my turn at the gun. Maybe we should've been a little more analytical at the time, but we were busy regaining our composure.
 
I don't know what to make of the two different primer hits either. I was hoping you would report that one was far off center meaning it had fired out of time, but that doesn't sound like the case. If both rounds fired while each was under the hammer, no matter how little time there was in between, then an explanation of why the shield was damaged may never be known. It doesn't make sense that that area would be under any pressure at all.
 
Are you sure the left side of the recoil shield is really damaged? It shouldn't look the same as the right side - it is relieved for the cylinder pin to be pushed in during closing of the cylinder and looks like it is "bent" backwards right where the cylinder pin hits it.
Excessive cylinder play can turn a revolver into an automatic. The cylinder is forced forward by the hammer, and if there is enough play then the recoil can force it back into the hammer hard enough to cock the hammer - if the trigger is still pulled the hammer will fall and could set off the next round. I remember this being described in an article on the Dan Wesson revolvers. The author was trying to see how big of a barrel-cylinder gap he could get and the it's affect on velocity when he got a surprise.
 
Chris - Good point. Maybe we're trying to understand a non-existent problem. The statement "... metal had sheared off the inside." may just be some unpolished factory machining marks, not uncommon in that area.

Can anyone close to the gun verify this so we can all get some sleep tonight? ;)
 
Well now that could very possibly be the issue here. Since I'm not at all familliar with the cannon in question, maybe it's supposed to be like that, but in all honesty, after fondling it for three days before we went shooting, I don't remember that side being bent like it is. Also that would mean that I really did pull that trigger twice, which would suprise me considering that it has a pretty heavy pull, although it isn't impossible that I could've. Maybe I'll have to swing by a shop this week and check one out to see if it looks the same.:confused:
 
Weird, really weird. I HAVE heard of single-actions with hammer-mounted firing-pins actually firing FULL-AUTO, because of pierced primers (a sharpened firing-pin punches through the primer, and the gas blow-back recocks the hammer for succeeding shots), but haven't heard of anything like this happening with a revolver with a firing-pin mounted in the frame. The only thing I could think that might've happened is the shooter wasn't ready for the recoil, and when it came back, he tried to take another grab at it, recocking the hammer.
 
dangerous revolver

This is why I never carry a revolver, they are too unreliable.

If you had been carrying a highpoint like I do you wouldn't have to worry about the gun double firing. In fact it's not likely to fire at all. Much safer indeed. I'm glad noone was injured.

Disclaimer: This is my feeble attempt at humor, I don't own or carry a highpoint nor would I. I also know that revolvers are inherently ultra reliable. I read this post and had nothing to offer past what Mr. Weigand said but felt the uncontrollable urge to be a wiseass.

(edited for clarity)
 
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