Responsibility and novices.

H

HiBC

New member
I did not want to hijack the thread on the tragic story about the child and the Uzi.
I long ago read a book"Mountaineering;Freedom of the Hills" Part of the book looked at case studies of fatal mountaineering accidents.An observation was,when a group of peers goes out,there is a reluctance for one person to speak up as Leader.Then,for example,the group may push on as weather is deteriorating.

Shooting sometimes needs the same thing,and egos can make it tough.

This Uzi accident is being exploited.I speculate someone choked on a piece of steak last week and died.Somebody probably died waterskiing,or fishing.Its all tragic,and likely could have been easily prevented.

Still,its a sad tragedy among shooters.Sympaties to all impacted.

I believe in Liberty,and I accept that Murphy will try to show up.

Go to Youtube,search "Gun fails compilations" and look at what is there.

Fairly common,setting up a new shooter with a heavy recoil gun,then stepping back to film"Watch this,yuk,yuk!?

Typical is a complete loss of control,muzzle pointed anywhere,and a very unpleasant experience for the new shooter.
There was one with a Desert Eagle and a petite woman.When she fired,the slide cycled,round in chamber,the muzzle impacted her forehead with her finger inside the guard.

Plenty are dropped,or go flying from recoil.

Lets keep the new shooter events safe and enjoyable.The jackass jokes are not funny.

Think of the pheasant hunt with 10 guys,a group milling around,and the one guy,semi-auto,bolt closed,carrying horizontal shoulder arms,sweeping everyone

Or an informal public shooting area everyone doing their own thing.

Somebody has to step up."Can we have a cease fire to set up targets?Are you all clear?Are you all clear?etc.

Its not hard,and folks generally appreciate it.

It might be you.Sometimes,somebody needs to say"Whoa,no,stop!"
 
I agree sometimes we get too caught up in minding our own business when maybe we need to say something. A few months ago I was at an indoor range and there were two women next to me. Several times they swept me with their revolvers and then one lady stepped behind me to reload her gun. I walked out and asked the attendant to move me to another lane which he did. He also took a moment to re-train the two ladies.

Of course in the original incident you mentioned and the situation I described I feel the burden was on the range owners. We as customers pay for range time and expect a certain amount of oversight. Yes, we still have to do our part, but there really needs to be some level of oversight.
 
In the case of a public shooting area group dynamics are not the same as a group operating together as a team, such as with mountaineering where groups are made up usually of friends.
 
Agreed.
In my experience,folks seem to appreciate it ,and some will step up themselves.I do not come off as authoritarian.

Most folks accept that the communication of a hot or cold line ,politely asking for a cease fire,etc are just necessary to responsibly shoot together.

With ear plugs,concentration on shooting,etc,its good to make sure everyone is heads up and aware when a person goes down range.

A lot has to do with style.It won't work to play Sgt Carter/Gomer Pyle.

We can facilitate achieving concensus the line is cold....
 
Something that has happened in many other "risky" areas such as SCUBA diving, Caving, climbing, motor racing & so on is that there is initially a period of great care by a novice. After a "newbie" period they become comfortable or over confident & that is statistically when many accidents occur. It used to be called the "50 dive wall" in sport diving because so many accidents happened right around dive #50.
 
The next category of potentially dangerous folks to be around is the ones who have "forgotten more about this than most of ya' know."
Familiarity can breed contempt - for the basic rules of safety.
Remember rule number 1 - trust no one completely.
 
That's also true.

I remember there used to be posters everywhere in Ready rooms on airfields. They showed a skeleton hand pushing a throttle quadrant forward, the phrase was "Don't let "VITAL ACTIONS" (a specific type of checklist) become automatic.
 
Barry Lees post make me wonder what the people manning the range were doing. The first time there was any unsafe activity they should have been on the range to take corrective action. A shooter should not have to go tell them.
 
Barry Lees post make me wonder what the people manning the range were doing.
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There were two guys working one was checking in a new shooter the other was over in the sales area showing a new gun. They have large windows and video monitors which give them a good view of what’s happening, but they are apparently often distracted.

I’m sure some do, but I’ve never been to an indoor range that had dedicated Range Officers that did nothing but watch the shooters.
 
Yes, we still have to do our part, but there really needs to be some level of oversight.
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As a CRSO that works a rifle line at a public range occasionally, I wish more customers had your attitude towards staff and their role in range operations and safety. Unfortunately, my experience is the opposite seems to be the more prevalent mindset.
 
Range I go to (indoor) generally has three people working and one does nothing but monitor activity on the range. They are especially vigilant with new shooters and new customers. I've seen them come on the range to correct quite a few shooters and even eject some after the second time they had to correct them for the same offense.
 
We are just as vigilant, but that doesn't change the fact that many shooters would prefer we don't keep a close eye on them.
I have, just in the last month, had a customer tell me he would not be back due to our safety regulations.
That's the kind of customer I don't want or need and unfortunately he isn't alone in his feelings. Most simply don't vocalize them to the range staff.
And there are those that walk up to staff members after a shooting session and thank them for "keeping the range safe". I wish we had lots more of those.
Everyone has his or her idea of what they should be allowed to do or not to do at a range.
It's the RSO's job to be sure everyone follows the rules the range says all will follow. Like them or not.
 
I have, just in the last month, had a customer tell me he would not be back due to our safety regulations.

That's the kind of customer I don't want or need...
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This. So much this. You don't need that kind of person on your facility -- neither the attitude nor the liability they bring with them.

As a full-time, professional firearms trainer, I'm very spoiled. The people I work with all pay me to keep them safe. They expect me to watch what they do with their firearms, expect me to maintain control of the class and the shooters on the line, and expect to be taught how to do better when they do something unsafe. That's a very different environment than a standard range, where people are "just there to have fun" and don't necessarily understand that it's a whole lot less fun when someone leaves the range with extra holes in their body.

Range safety really is everyone's responsibility. Finding the right balance between staying safe by simply leaving, staying safe by informing range staff of what's happening, staying safe by gently offering quiet instruction, or staying safe by calling out unsafe practices -- that's where it gets tricky. My hat's off to anyone who competently navigates through those shoals!

pax
 
CowTowner said:
Everyone has his or her idea of what they should be allowed to do or not to do at a range.
It's the RSO's job to be sure everyone follows the rules the range says all will follow. Like them or not.
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^^this right here is the bottom line. But its hard for some people to grasp.

I almost never shoot a ranges so in my experience being the guy to speak up and say something has always been risky. I mostly shoot on public lands and if someone else shows up and isn't being safe I usually just pack up quickly and leave asap. It isn't worth it.

I go about once a year to a rifle range to check my zero on my rifle or sight in new scopes etc. I like this range great accommodations and good safety rules. One time the RO put the line cold so folks can check/refresh targets. Everyone is required to open actions, insert chamber flag and step behind the line. No one is allowed to handle ANY firearms when the line is cold. This one guy kept tinkering with his scope while everybody waited. The RO had to ask him 3 times with a final warning before he followed orders with a bad attitude. This is the kind of person that makes it difficult for the casual person to speak up to you never know who your going to deal with. For some reason when it comes to firearms some people think they are being insulted when corrected and take great offense.
 
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