Requesting help on a 30.06 problem.

C

Chulain

New member
Hey folks,

I bought a used 30.06 a few months back and just got a chance to fire it given my geographic location and lack of viable outdoor ranges (I live in a metro area.)

Here is the problem. I was shooting it yesterday at only 50 yards and in addition to being WAY off target, (I took out the right arm of my wooden target holder with the first 2 bullets!) the bullet TUMBLES! It looks like someone took an unfired bullet and cookie-cut a hole in the target. Oddest damn thing I have ever seen. (And also accounts for why it obliterated the right arm of my target holder in 2 shots.) I have heard of black powder weapons doing this occasionally but never a bolt action, and surely not EVERY shot! I checked out the gun before I bought it and it looked OK, though I never got the chance to put a bore light in it, and never thought I needed to since the rest of the gun was so nice. The wood and finish are immaculate, and the barrel and bolt looked fine.

I took the scope and scope mount off and flipped up the sights to see if it was any more accurate. It was almost dead on the center of the target, but about 3 inches high, and that probably was my fault since I hadn’t set the open sights at all. (First time I had fired this gun.)

I also tried various makes and weights of ammo (Winchester and Remington 150 and 165 gr.) to eliminate that possibility.

A few people there at the range that I was shooting at said that the barrel might be shot out and advised taking it in to have it either lined for 25.06 or bored out for .338 since I want to keep the furniture. It is a beautiful gun. Any recommendations or similar experiences?

But if it was shot out, how could it be accurate and on target with open sights?

Thanks in advance.

In Liberty,

Chulain
 
I can hardly see how the barrel would be "shot out" when it groups well with the open sights. Big puzzle, but I would try looking at the barrel to see if it might be full of crud or whatnot. If you have the equipment, check the condition of the bore in general.I would also dismount the scope down to the bases, and check the mounts for any looseness, making sure none of the mounts or ring screws were stripped, and re-zero the whole thing. Good luck to you!
 
Something doesn't add up here. The rifle shoots OK with open sights, but bullets tumble when you fire it with a scope??
 
Chulian,

What rifle (manufactuer, model) are we talking about here? How old do you think it is? This might provide a bit of info into what is going on here.

Also, as you probably figured out by now, the condition of the bore (and to a lesser extent the bolt face and trigger) goes a long way to determining the real "condition" of the rifle.

JohnDog
 
Chulain

Ok, some more info may help as it sounds like you may have a few problems.

#1 - Was the bullets tumbling both with & without the scope?

#2 - Was the gun (i.e. bore) clean.

I can understand why you may have been hitting off target with the scope. It may not have been properly sighted in in the first place (if both bullets hit the target stand was the group good? ;) ) You just need to sight in the scope.

A few things can cause bullets to tumble. The first thing I would do is give the rifle (barrel) an extreamly good cleaning. Then I would take a very close look at the crown & bore. You may even want to take a cast of the chamber & slug the bore to see if they are up to spec.

Address this in stages.
 
Clarification...

Let me clarify. The bullet ALWAYS tumbles regardless of whether it is scoped or not. I wasn’t hitting a the broad side of a barn with the Weaver scope that came with the used gun, so I took it and the scope mount off and fired off one more round. It landed 3” high and almost dead on at 50 yards but was still keyholed. Only one shot I fired out of the original 10 was not keyholed. I declined to fire more shots after that as a few of the people at the outdoor range I was at said that an unsafe firing condition existed and not to fire it again until I had it looked at. The barrel is not bulged or in anyway marred on the exterior. The crown looks OK. I checked the barrel with a bore-light and the thing is near MINT! No degradation of the rifling whatsoever.

Hope that helps.

In Liberty,

Chulain
 
Furthermore…

Since people posted other questions in the time I was typing up my response, I will try to provide more details.

The 30.06 is a National Arms Co. NATO De Luxe 60

Yes the gun was clean, I had just given it a good thorough cleaning and oiling a few hours before I shot it. The rifling looks like it just came off the assembly line, and looks better than all my other guns that DO shoot well.

As for the age, your guess is as good as mine. Considering the craftsmanship in the stock and the mirror finish of the wood furniture, I would say 20+ years old at least. By comparison I have another 30.06 that was made in 1955 that is a tack driver and gets sub 1” groups at 100 yards with whatever run of the mill factory ammo I feed it.

And for the taking out of my wooden target stand, the grouping was within an inch of each other on those two shots ;)

My question is what could possibly cause a bullet to tumble like that. A bullet tumbles when it reaches the apex of it’s range and becomes unstable at extreme ranges, but at 50 yards???? Out of 11 shots fired only ONE did not tumble. And that was like shot 6 of 11 or something.

The bolt face is fine and trigger immaculate and crisp.

As for the previous owner having it rebored to another caliber; that is possible, but unlikely. This thing feeds and extracts like butter, and when put next to my other 30.06 has the same size barrel interior. (Naked eye of course, I don’t have anything to measure it with.)

In Liberty,

Chulain
 
Something's not right with that barrel. Only time I've seen bullets tumble like that was when shooting heavy .223 bullets out of a 1:12 twist barrel. Have you checked the rifling twist rate? 1:10 is good for 30.06 and .308.
 
Chulain. I think that if it were me, I'd slug that bore. Even then, that may not give an answer. I had a .243 that keyholes at 25 feet, and hit nothing at 100 yards but the backstop, and it was a miracle it hit that. I kind of wonder if you don't have an 8MM-06 that is mismarked. Granted, that's a wild guess. Seeing as you already have a 30-06, and you'd like to keep the rifle pretty much as is, I'd consider reboring it to either 338-8 or 35 Whelan. Preferably the latter as it is a factory round and the .338-06 is still kind of a semi-wildcat. (Hopefully that'll change soon.)
Either way, slug that bore. FWIW though. That .243 of mine checked out perfectly, (slugged the bore) and still it would not shoot.
Paul B.
 
My best guess, without seeing the weapon, is that the bore is over sized, so the bullets are not stabilizing.
I once saw a supposed 30-06 that actually had an 8mm barrel on it, it exhibited poor accuracy as well. The barrel was stamped 30-06, and it was chambered for 30-06, but the bore was definitely 8mm. Somebody at the gun factory fell asleep on the job, evidently...

Naturally, you would see little if any bore wear even after repeated firings, because the round is seldom contacting the barrel...
Check to see if the bore is concentric, and check to see if it is coaxial with the OD of the barrel. If the bore actually forms a helix, that could cause tumbling.
Measure the bore diameter and/or slug the bore and measure that, and then get back to us.
Also, check your brass for signs of split case mouths and excesive fireforming. These conditions could also indicate a bore or chamber that is the wrong size.
 
I'll ditto Paul, but only on the stipulation that you've checked your AMMO!
Take the whole mess, rifle and partial box (any remaining rounds) of the ammo you were firing that day and go see your local gunsmith.
Something's not right and your ammo doesn't fit the gun. Either the bore's too large or there's something wrong with the ammunition.
Either way, don't shoot it anymoe until you get it figured out. Gas blow by eats rifling FAST!
 
What ammo are you using? If it is handloads, you may not be getting enough velocity to stabilize the bullet. Take it to a good gunsmith, preferably one that builds rifles. Michael
 
Ding in crown ? Or maybe barrel shortened and not cut true to bore line ? In addition to the other things to look for. Big bored sounds most likely to me, but ???
Sam
 
Here's a quick way to see if your bore is bigger then .308 caliber...

Grab a pulled bullet from an -06, or 308 Win. and try to fit it into the end of the barrel. If the barrel is 30 caliber, then it will only go part ways into the bore. The lands from the rifling will stop it before it goes too far. If that barrel is 8mm, then that bullet should fall all the way to the bolt face.

This is an alternative to slugging, if all you want to do is find out whether the barrel has the correct bore. Slugging the tube will basically tell you two things:

1) Exact bore land and groove size.

2) If there is a bulge somewhere along the line. This can be told by a lessening (and then increase) of resistance as you push the slug through the bore.

Good luck
Unkel Gilbey
 
Hi, guys,

Unkel, you don't need to pull a bullet. Just take a live .30-'06 round and put the bullet into the muzzle. It should stop 1/8-1/4" from the case mouth, depending on the ogive. If it goes all the way in, or the case goes in up to the shoulder, that barrel is either very badly worn or over .30.

Jim
 
Well I did as someone suggested and stuck a bullet point first into the muzzle of another 30.06 that I know is good and in fine working order, and see how far it stuck in (about 2/3rds of the way) and then I stuck the same bullet in the National 30.06. It went in almost up to the brass! And since it is the original barrel, and since the rifling looks nearly factory new, I am leaning towards it being an 8mm-06. When I have the time and extra cash to take it to a gunsmith and have him mic the barrel, I will let you all know what it is.

Of course having a rifle that consistently keyholes 150 thru 180 grain 30.06 bullets would make one HELL of a combat rifle. Wouldn’t want to get shot with this thing, noooooooo way. Probably lose an apendage at the very least! Yikes!

Also someone suggested recovering a fired bullet if possible. That, unfortunately, is NOT possible as all shots fired at the outdoor rifle range I use impact an earthen berm.

In Liberty,

Chulain
 
Try miking the OD of a case neck from one of your fired cartridges, and compare it to a known '06 fired-case. You might, for some reason unknown to mankind, have an 8mm-'06.

:), Art
 
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