Replicating Lib. Civ. Def. 50 gr 9mm+P

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PewPewPachew

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Hello all, I'm new here, but I figured this would be the place to start my search.

I was wondering if any of you had some solid data, or a good place to start, in replicating the performance (claimed or otherwise) of the Liberty Civil Defense 50 gr 9mm +p. They're supposed to be getting 2000fps.

Obviously a bit of difference here, but I've got my hands on some 65 gr pills, that I'd like to try pushing to the 1800fps mark from a 4-5" barrel. So far the lowest weight published data I have found is for 80gr boolets from hodgdon. I've picked up Power Pistol, Blue Dot, CFE Pistol, and Unique. I have tried to find Winchester 572, but I haven't found any ata LGS within 200 miles(not joking).

I've also got brand new star line brass. Regular 9mm for anything within normal pressure ranges, +p for anything venturing beyond. Not because the cases are stronger, just for a clear definition between what cases have been used for what. I also have Federal Match SP magnum primers.


So that is what my goal is, and what I have to work with: I am not trying to start a debate as to why. I'm doing this for my own curiousity, and because I'd like to see if what I'm doing is actually feasible. I look forward to hearing what y'all might have to say.
 
This was a pulldown done on the 10mm firearms forum on the LCD 50gr load you're trying to duplicate.

Cartridge is from Ammo Manufacture: Liberty Civil Defense 50 gr Fragmenting HP +P
Ballistics Information: 9mm
Muzzle Velocity: 2000 fps
Muzzle Energy: 444 ft. lbs
Brass Make/Headstamp: LIBERTY – Nickle +P
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.5010”/Dia. 0.3550”: 50 gr. FHP
Actual weight 50.4 grains (Lathe Turned)(lead free)(flat base) Crimp line 0.3480” (turned 0.1200” up from base)
HP Depth 0.4100” / HP Cavity 0.1700” tapered / HP mouth 0.2225”
C.O.A.L.: 1.1315”
Primer: Nickle color
Case: Diameter 0.3870” Crimp Diameter 0.3775” (medium crimp) Length 0.7460”
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight: ? Tite Group ? 7.6 grains *
(Specialty round that is extra light so it hard to profile).

Autocomp is a good powder as well and what underwood ammo uses in their +p+ ammo.
 
Thanks for the response. I managed to find a good selection of Winchester powders at a Cabelas. I picked up the Autocomp, 572, WSF, and 231. I should have a broad enough variety of powders to get some variety to my results. As I develop loads, I'll keep the results posted. If anyone is interested for that matter.
 
You can always start with data for heavier bullets of the same construction.
The thing is, these are probably not lead core but monolithic.
 
FWIW---AutoComp and CFE Pistol are for all practical purposes
identical.

I would probably stick with the slower powders. AutoComp, HS6, WSF

Watch it on the WSF--the stuff is VERY reverse temperature sensitive.

I've tried Winchester 572 on 115 gr 9mm Major USPSA loads at around
1500 FPS. Seemed to work well, but I'm going to continue with HS6
for now.
 
Light bullet require a faster burning powder than heavier bullets. That is just as true in straight cases as it is in bottle-neck cases.
If I was going to work up a load for a bullet that was not listed in any data I could find the first thing I would do is give Sierra a call. The number is 18002238799. I have only stumped them once. If they don't have the information you want then I would find data for a bullet in the same cartridge that weighs close to twice as much as possible. Find the fastest burning powder available in that data and start with the maximum listed charge for the heavier bullet as your starting load. Your maximum charge with the lighter bullet will be between 1.25 to 1.5 times the maximum charge that you started with. To do this safely you must have some way to determine when you get to your guns maximum safe pressures. With a quality semi-auto this is going to be difficult at best. You are unlikely to have problems with flattened or cratered primers and the gun will probably blow up before the breech face will leave imprints in the case head. The two things that you can monitor are case length and velocity in feet per second divided by the powder charge in grains (requires a good chronograph)
If you check the case length after each firing you will be aware when the length jumps more than usual but you have to be sure to trim all the cases you use to the same length and you should start with brass that is fired once in your gun with a moderate load all from the same batch. Keep very good records recording all the data you know about the brass, powder, bullet, primer, and the loaded cartridge. Use a good micrometer to measure the length of your cases in three places and record the results. Trim them all to the same length after sizing and increase your load by 0.1 grain. If the cases normally gain 0.001" each time they are fired and one case grows 0.002" on the next step but the rest only grow about the same then you will know that you might be getting close to the maximum pressure. Retest the same load again and if the results don't repeat then raise your load and test again.
Continue testing like that until you get repeated aberrations or you reach 1.5 times the load you started with. Stop which ever happens first. If case growth happens first then back the load down 0.2 grains and use that as your maximum load.

with a chronograph you can increase your load in the same way but watch for a lower increase in velocity as a result of the same step up in powder. Your velocity should increase the same amount for the same increase in powder until you reach a critical pressure. At that point the velocity will increase less for the same amount of powder and you know you have reached the limit. You should drop back two steps below that point and use that as your maximum load.

This kind of load development is common but it can be dangerous if you are not extremely careful. The last thing I want is for a reloader to hurt himself or damage his gun. If you are not sure if you are capable and are not willing to take full responsibility for the outcome then don't do it.
 
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Thank you for the input gentlemen, I really appreciate it.

@ShootistPRS

I had not considered that the primers would not show much flattening in a semi, and had planned on using that as a tell for excessive pressure. Thank you very much for bringing that to my attention. Your methods for developing the max loads are also a new path I had not heard of before.

I had been considering using data for the lightest bullet published, 80gr. 65gr is just over 81% of that 80 gr bullet. Although I doubt the corresponding rise in pressure, in contrast to increase of powder charge is quite that linear, would starting with the minimum load increased by 19% be a bad idea?

As far as my equipment, I do have a chronograph, micrometer, and a notepad. This is my first foray into reloading something where published data is not available. To err in the side of caution has been my take on this. I'm trying to be as methodical and intuitive in this process as I can. Hence my reaching out to those who may know better.

The test pistol will be a newer production, standard CeeZee75. Cold hammer forged, 4.6" barrel.
 
My 2 pennies

Yes titegroup or faster would be your best bet. I'd almost say you'd get into a compressed load with titegroup with that bullet. I have a pile of those liberty defense Bullets you want to reverse engineer. I wanted to do the same until I watched the gel test video on YouTube. Not the results I had hoped for. Also I worked up some over max loads by approx .8 gn with some 115 hdy xtp in a 9mm with titegroup. On my last test (the highest charge wt) I noticed a slight halo imprint around the base, similar to an old Mauser 243 when I shoot it hot. The mark was just definitive enough to say something was different and I wasn't anywhere near blowing the pistol up with an extra .8 gn at 1250ish fps. In my opinion TG is the best pistol powder. I've only used about 5 different powders in 4 pistols but I've found the best accurate loads with that stuff. In the end there is no way to reliably gauge pressure signs in a pistol but I have no doubt there will be at least a couple of warning signs before it gives you the nickname stumpy.
 
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I finally did some testing a few weeks ago, and forgot to post the results.

Of the loads tested, the best results were with 7.2 gr of VV N350. Velocities were: -1594 -1534 -1561 -1558 -1573.

I only fired the 5 rounds, but that gives a spread of 60fps, and an average of 1,564fps. Moving right along.

The other two charges tested, yielded some interesting results.
6.2 gr of W572, was slower, but more consistent. It averaged 1,377fps with a spread of 54fps.

6.4 gr of CFE Pistol, was disappointing. The average was 1238fps, with a spread of 87fps.

All three loads showed no signs of high pressure. Casings were within 0.001" near the mouth, and no difference at the webbing, of casings that had been loaded with light, 90gr8 pill loads.

Of the three, only the VVN350 ejected with enough force that I would count on it to reliably cycle the action. The W572 ejected well enough, but was still a little soft for my likes. CFE Pistol ejected just about 3" straight up. The action could almost cycle, and close down on a casing falling back into it.

That said, all three were very light in recoil, as to be expected. There was also no excessive muzzle flash, or blast. In fact, I would consider it very mild compared to any other 9mm loading I have fired.

The only issue I had moving forward, was powder density. 7.2gr8 of VV N350, nearly fills a casing to the edge. I managed to find some N340, which VV lists 6.2gr8 being the maximum charge for 90gr8 pills, and being within 40fps of N350. I loaded a few up, and there is indeed room for improvement :D with this powder. I loaded a ladder, up to 6.8gr. I will do some testing later, and post the results.

Again, all loads were with brand new starline brass, sized in rcbs carbides. Loaded to 1.100" O.A.L., and primed with Fed Match Small Pistol Magnum.
 
I can't find where the OP has posted anywhere on the forum since 2017.

I suspect he's not coming back...
So, we're closing this one.
 
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