Has anyone used this ammo in a 10MM firearm? It is a combination use product. It is advertised as .40/10MM. There is a slight difference in size of the cartridges and I wanted to know if anyone had issues with it and if they had used it in a Sig. It is reasonably priced and has great expansion.
Renmington Golden Saber Ammo
- Thread starter JPE3
- Start date
carguychris
New member
Are we discussing loaded cartridges or component bullets?JPE3 said:
Both .40 S&W and 10mm Auto use the same caliber bullets, but the former uses a 0.850" (21.6 mm) long case while the latter uses a 0.992" (25.2 mm) long case and operates at higher pressure. They can use the same bullets if handloaded but the loaded cartridges are generally incompatible. 10mm cartridges are too long to chamber in .40 S&W firearms (or generally even to fit in the magazines), and while a .40 S&W cartridge will physically fit in a 10mm chamber or magazine, it will not headspace properly once chambered.
While some folks have fired .40 S&W ammo in 10mm pistols with some degree of success (i.e. generally non-catastrophic consequences), the wisdom of this practice is hotly disputed because of the headspace issue. No responsible ammo manufacturer would advertise a .40 S&W load as being usable in a 10mm pistol. Using multiple cartridges in the same handgun is generally a revolver thing and not an auto pistol thing unless we're discussing barrel swaps.
Last edited:
there is no such thing. Remington doesn't even load a 10 mm in GS at this time. If you found such a thing, it's obviously old stock, and what you are reading is probably regarding a 10 mm that has been lightly loaded to reach 40 ballistics. Assuming that you are referring to ammunition and not component bullets.
"Ammo" is typically used to refer to loaded cartridges.
As Carguychris pointed out, it sounds like what you're calling "ammo" is actually just the bullet, as in this advertisement:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/16...-400-diameter-165-grain-jacketed-hollow-point
The same bullets are used in 40 S&W and 10mm ammo. Both calibers use a bullet diameter of .400".
Golden Sabre bullets are as good as any other hollowpoint.
As Carguychris pointed out, it sounds like what you're calling "ammo" is actually just the bullet, as in this advertisement:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/16...-400-diameter-165-grain-jacketed-hollow-point
The same bullets are used in 40 S&W and 10mm ammo. Both calibers use a bullet diameter of .400".
Golden Sabre bullets are as good as any other hollowpoint.
wild cat mccane
New member
Golden Sabers do not do well when pushed hard.
It fragments even though it is bonded. Note, Remington offers a light 125gr. 357 Golden Saber load. Remington does not offer a hot 158gr Golden Saber load.
Underwood Ammo uses Speer bonded jacketed (gold dots that are slower to open) and not regular gold dots because even the slower Gold Dots (as compared to HST) fragments.
It fragments even though it is bonded. Note, Remington offers a light 125gr. 357 Golden Saber load. Remington does not offer a hot 158gr Golden Saber load.
Underwood Ammo uses Speer bonded jacketed (gold dots that are slower to open) and not regular gold dots because even the slower Gold Dots (as compared to HST) fragments.
I'm not sure what that last part means, all good dots a r e bonded. They are made bonded. A gold dot starts as an undersized swagger slug. It is plated, very heavily, unit the plating is at the proper thickness. There are between five and ten further staging operations that cut petals. Punch the cavity, bump to proper size, press to proper olive and profile, and then a final shaping.
Not many people understand the actual name. During development, the initial punching of the hollow point the jacket material was pushed to th bottom of the cavity and it was there after testing. It wasn't appreciated, they thought it looked like a mistake. Some of the engineers tried to work out ways to eliminate the spot, for example, drilling the spot out as the first step, but one of the more savvy members of the team realized the value. It demonstrated that expansion had been perfect if that little copper disk remained at the bottom of the cavity. They continue to perfect the drivers sign, and marketing created the name: gold dot.
They weren't the first to make a premium plated bullet, Remington designed the power lokt hp using a similar process.
Not many people understand the actual name. During development, the initial punching of the hollow point the jacket material was pushed to th bottom of the cavity and it was there after testing. It wasn't appreciated, they thought it looked like a mistake. Some of the engineers tried to work out ways to eliminate the spot, for example, drilling the spot out as the first step, but one of the more savvy members of the team realized the value. It demonstrated that expansion had been perfect if that little copper disk remained at the bottom of the cavity. They continue to perfect the drivers sign, and marketing created the name: gold dot.
They weren't the first to make a premium plated bullet, Remington designed the power lokt hp using a similar process.
wild cat mccane
New member
I am sorry you didn't know that Speer makes Gold Dots and Speer Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point???
But it is a fact. Gold Dots have cuts into the copper that speed expansion. Speer Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point do not have cuts and open up slower.
But it is a fact. Gold Dots have cuts into the copper that speed expansion. Speer Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point do not have cuts and open up slower.
Wild cat, I believe that you are mistaken. Speer does not make a " bonded jacketed hollow point",it is not part of their catalog. The gold dot IS a bonded jacketed hollow point, and that is the description given for the gold dot. That is not the name of a separate design They appear to be available only from Underwood, correct? Underwood describes the same technique as gold dot u I core, electroplating, etc. The bullets that they show are identical, with identical internal skiving.
http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/gold_dot_prsnl.aspx
If you do, in fact, have some sort of believable information showing that Speer makes a gold dot, and a bonded jacketed hollow point that isn't a gold dot, let me know, and back up your assertions with documentation so I can understand why you claim that it is a fact.
http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/gold_dot_prsnl.aspx
If you do, in fact, have some sort of believable information showing that Speer makes a gold dot, and a bonded jacketed hollow point that isn't a gold dot, let me know, and back up your assertions with documentation so I can understand why you claim that it is a fact.
wild cat mccane
New member
It's a bit historical, but Speer has pulled the information, but they still have three different "Gold Dot" bullets (ATK is the parent company). The UCHPs are old Gold Dots before they made them with the cuts in the copper. They do not expand as fast.
"
http://glarp.atk.com/2009/2009_Catal...etsCatalog.pdf
Gold Dots are discussed on page 7, Uni-Cor HPs on page 9. Seems like the UCHPs are less expensive, and do not have jacket cuts (memory lines) to aid in dependable, uniform expansion. "
Note, Speer does not list Gold Dot 2s on their website, but it is the newest Gold Dot design...
"
http://glarp.atk.com/2009/2009_Catal...etsCatalog.pdf
Gold Dots are discussed on page 7, Uni-Cor HPs on page 9. Seems like the UCHPs are less expensive, and do not have jacket cuts (memory lines) to aid in dependable, uniform expansion. "
Note, Speer does not list Gold Dot 2s on their website, but it is the newest Gold Dot design...
Last edited:
can you provide a link that works? can you also explain what makes the UCHP expand more reliably, or am I misreading your meaning?
This uchp is the original gold dot, i believe. Speer made the original fully jacketed solid bullet. All it was was the heavily plated bullet that would hold up under impact and going through the bore. It was sold at a competitive price to regular jacketed bullets, at a huge savings in production costs, as reported at the time that they were invented. Then, the marketers decided to punch hollow points, and make a little bit more money. Hollow points were more expensive even back then. They were all, generally speaking, pretty inefficient. While the silvertip was considered one of the best 9mm, the scalloped remington another, etc, none of them managed to perform well enough. the silvertip clogged in the small opening. many, maybe even most of the available bullets from the sixties didn't even have jacket cuts, and had exposed lead that would tear off during expansion. The remington dropped weight as the big exposed tip tore off. current designs
when the FBI started investigating new designs, well, speer, along with every other bullet maker tried to not only get the law enforcement contracts, but to earn the eternal bragging rights to having created the official combat ammo for the law officers of america. This is when the special designs came into production for the gold dot, and it became a truly effective round.
Even as far back as the sixties, there have been plated bullets, not plated as the gold dot, heavily, but essentially a thin was to cover the lead. Probably thinner than the current series of thinly plated lead bullets. Gold dot are far more heavily plated.
I wouldn't use one of the old uchp. There are maybe even 100 designs that are far more effective. IMO, skiving the jacket is the one most important design, allowing for quicker opening while still supporting the lead mushroom.Adding a polymer tip or a very effective cavity design makes it even quicker to open, but that still leaves it needing a good jacket design to support the mushroom and retain weight.
Electroplated bullets go way back. The power lokt by remington was one of the originals. those gullets were just slugs that were swaged precisely to shape and weight, then plated heavily, and formed without even using an actual opening in the hp. Just a dimple in the bullet. The bullets, instead of blasting into lad and copper fragments, broke into fewer, heavier chunks, because you couldn't lose pieces of jacket. They claimed improved accuracy, but I don't know. I think that its amazing that so many great, fine designs were available over half a century ago, like the bronze point and power lokt, nosler partition, for example, and it took all these years to exploit those ideas.
This uchp is the original gold dot, i believe. Speer made the original fully jacketed solid bullet. All it was was the heavily plated bullet that would hold up under impact and going through the bore. It was sold at a competitive price to regular jacketed bullets, at a huge savings in production costs, as reported at the time that they were invented. Then, the marketers decided to punch hollow points, and make a little bit more money. Hollow points were more expensive even back then. They were all, generally speaking, pretty inefficient. While the silvertip was considered one of the best 9mm, the scalloped remington another, etc, none of them managed to perform well enough. the silvertip clogged in the small opening. many, maybe even most of the available bullets from the sixties didn't even have jacket cuts, and had exposed lead that would tear off during expansion. The remington dropped weight as the big exposed tip tore off. current designs
when the FBI started investigating new designs, well, speer, along with every other bullet maker tried to not only get the law enforcement contracts, but to earn the eternal bragging rights to having created the official combat ammo for the law officers of america. This is when the special designs came into production for the gold dot, and it became a truly effective round.
Even as far back as the sixties, there have been plated bullets, not plated as the gold dot, heavily, but essentially a thin was to cover the lead. Probably thinner than the current series of thinly plated lead bullets. Gold dot are far more heavily plated.
I wouldn't use one of the old uchp. There are maybe even 100 designs that are far more effective. IMO, skiving the jacket is the one most important design, allowing for quicker opening while still supporting the lead mushroom.Adding a polymer tip or a very effective cavity design makes it even quicker to open, but that still leaves it needing a good jacket design to support the mushroom and retain weight.
Electroplated bullets go way back. The power lokt by remington was one of the originals. those gullets were just slugs that were swaged precisely to shape and weight, then plated heavily, and formed without even using an actual opening in the hp. Just a dimple in the bullet. The bullets, instead of blasting into lad and copper fragments, broke into fewer, heavier chunks, because you couldn't lose pieces of jacket. They claimed improved accuracy, but I don't know. I think that its amazing that so many great, fine designs were available over half a century ago, like the bronze point and power lokt, nosler partition, for example, and it took all these years to exploit those ideas.
It does a very nice job in the 45 ACP. I would not hesitate to use it in any cartridge. Watch the gel test.
Golden Saber 45 ACP gel test.
It is not quite as accurate as Speer Gold Dot for me but pretty close.
Golden Saber 45 ACP gel test.
It is not quite as accurate as Speer Gold Dot for me but pretty close.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Is Golden Saber even sold any more? After seeing this thread I went looking for information, and Remington's web site (and 2016 catalog) doesn't even mention it.
Has Golden Saber been r4eplaced by Remington's new Ultimate Defense ammunition?
Has Golden Saber been r4eplaced by Remington's new Ultimate Defense ammunition?
there is only one objection in my mind to the saber. With those wide square flaps, rather than a sharper profile, The sharp tips and deep v shaped gaps allow the thing to have a wider mushroom, and still get the penetration of a narrower mushroom hst, for example, is listed as 14 inches with .85 inches.
I don't thing that any one bullet is going to be the decisive round, what worked in one shooting may fail in another.
The only thing that we know about these things is what they do in gel under the conditions tested, and as I've said before, chaos is in charge. There is no bullet that can do everything, what if you're shooting through a Christmas tree?
I don't thing that any one bullet is going to be the decisive round, what worked in one shooting may fail in another.
The only thing that we know about these things is what they do in gel under the conditions tested, and as I've said before, chaos is in charge. There is no bullet that can do everything, what if you're shooting through a Christmas tree?
Last edited:
The golden saber was released many years ago, twenty or so. Later they bonded jacket and core, and sold bonded versions, and eventually quit making unbonded, then dropped the saber name for a more efficient and deadly sounding name.
At a buck a round they fit right in with other top rounds in price, and frankly, you can use pretty much any of those buck a round specialist rounds from good makers and get good results. They are all designed to work equally on jelly, and will for the most part function identically on flesh.
The criteria for one that works is jacket cuts, wide open point, solid band without cuts where the mushroom is to stop, calibrated lead and jacket material, a jacket design that stops unfolding and seizes before curling over, so it will support the mushroom lead.and a whole lot of work in design, testing, and tweaking.
I have seen bullets that expanded so much that the jacket literally curled into a ball and the lead tore off in a ring, while the shank of the bullet went through.
The Barnes solid copper are a good example, but without the lead. If it was legal to use carbide, taking a partition design, leaving the point open like the Barnes and batting super heavy tungsten in the bas would allow for the "solid copper" design to be made more compact, allowing for a shorter bullet.
At a buck a round they fit right in with other top rounds in price, and frankly, you can use pretty much any of those buck a round specialist rounds from good makers and get good results. They are all designed to work equally on jelly, and will for the most part function identically on flesh.
The criteria for one that works is jacket cuts, wide open point, solid band without cuts where the mushroom is to stop, calibrated lead and jacket material, a jacket design that stops unfolding and seizes before curling over, so it will support the mushroom lead.and a whole lot of work in design, testing, and tweaking.
I have seen bullets that expanded so much that the jacket literally curled into a ball and the lead tore off in a ring, while the shank of the bullet went through.
The Barnes solid copper are a good example, but without the lead. If it was legal to use carbide, taking a partition design, leaving the point open like the Barnes and batting super heavy tungsten in the bas would allow for the "solid copper" design to be made more compact, allowing for a shorter bullet.
wild cat mccane
New member
The original poster needs to research Golden Sabers (possibly now just relabeled as HTP?) in high velocity tests. They fragment, which means they fail.