Removing Importers Markings?

W

Willie Sutton

Moderator
Not sure if this should be here or in Law and Civil Rights, that area seems better for legal issues regarind 2nd Amendment issues and not what will follow, but I'm happy to take advice from the moderators.

Question:

We all know it's illegal to deface a serial number, that goes without saying.

We also know that when a firearm is imported into the USA it needs to have caliber, country of manufacture, and the name of the importer marked on it (either as original markings or as added markings). This is a requirement for IMPORTATION of the firearm.


The question is "Can those marking then subsequently be removed for the purpose or restoration of a historically significant firearm, when those markings impact the desirability of the so-marked firearm?"


My reading of the regs break markings down into three categories:

Those that cannot be removed (serial number).

Those that are advertising and have no legal standing (like "read manual before shooting yourself in the foot with this"

Those that are required for IMPORTATION, cited above.

Once imported and sold to the consumer, do those import markings need to stay?


I know there will be a lot of opinions, but can anyone cite a regulation that requires that they remain in place in perpetuity once they are imported?


Willie

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I have a letter from BATF Hq that says that nothing in Federal law forbids the removal of import markings by the end user of the firearm.

Beware, however, of State laws. Many States forbid removing any identification markings from a firearm and they can be ambiguous about what constitutes an identification marking.
 
This isn't definitive, but if they did want to make removal of the importation marks (other than the serial number) illegal, this would have been an easy place to add it.

It's from 18 U.S.C, Sec 922.

(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport,

ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm

which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number

removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any

firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial

number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been

shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
 
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That refers to serial number. Understandable. But older, non-nfa guns, muzzle loaders, etc. seem to be exempt.
BTW, many markings are deeply stamped into the steel. How would one eliminate them without doing damage to the gun?
 
Just curious...

Since some importers not only put an importers mark, but also at times a seriel number on it, I wonder how this would concern a trace of the firearm if the importers mark were removed. To my understanding the ATF would be attempting to confirm and contact the importer, then see who they sold that seriel number firearm to, and then trace down the line.
 
It is what it is, I think !!!

The question is "Can those marking then subsequently be removed for the purpose or restoration of a historically significant firearm, when those markings impact the desirability of the so-marked firearm?"
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Not sure I understand the logic of the question, for if it's a historically significant firearm, why would you really want to?? ... :confused:

I've seen it done and on one reproduction in particular, the Made in Japan, was removed and the seller was trying to present it as an original. ... :cool:

May not be legal, but is it ethical? ..... ;)

Be Safe !!!
 
Just wanted to share the link to the ATF website so others may read on this topic: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-overview.html

Upon reading it, there is no mention of removing the markings. Under the part ATF ruling 2002-6 it says:
The above regulations require markings that legibly identify each item or package and require that such markings be conspicuous. ATF has consistently taken the position that “legibly” marked means using exclusively Roman letters, (A, a, B, b, C, c, and so forth) and ‘conspicuous” means that all required markings must be placed in such a manner as to be wholly unobstructed from plain view. These regulation apply to licensed manufacturers and licensed importers relative to firearms, armor piercing ammunition, and large capacity ammunition feeding devices, and to makers of National Firearms Act firearms.
Click to expand...

My take on it after reading this, is that while the importers are required to place these markings, the ATF, since it mentions "legibly" "conspicuous" and "unobstructed" would want these markings to be permanent so that, if needed, a proper trace could be performed.

While I do not doubt that EOD Guy has an ATF letter stating that the end user may remove them, I can understand a level of confusion.

Speaking for myself, I do not think I would remove an importers mark.

Edit to add:

Both ATF ruling 2008-2 Link:http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2008-2.pdf

And the Federal Firearms Rgulation Guide link: http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Require that a FFL holder record the manufacturer and importer. Quote below:

Section 478.125(e) sets forth recordkeeping requirements for acquisition and disposition records maintained by licensed dealers. This section requires that licensed dealers record each receipt and disposition of firearms and states that the record shall be maintained in bound form under the format specified. This section further states that the acquisition of a firearm shall, except as provided in paragraph (g) (relating to delaying entry of curio or relic firearms into the acquisition record in specified circumstances), be recorded not later than the close of the next day following the date of the acquisition. In addition, the regulation requires that the record include the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm.
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So while it may be permitted under the letter that EOD Guy has. If an end user were to remove the import mark listing the importers name, then if the firearm in question were later sold/traded/transfered, etc, to a new FFL, the new FFL technically may be in violation of 478.125 (e) above since the firearm no longer has the import mark to list the proper importer as required in the bound book.

Perhaps I am wrong...
 
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The particular defacement that I want to remove is the stupid lazer-dotted and very poorly added markings put on things like CZ-82's by Century up in Vermont. Bottom line is that I am going to refinish my CZ-82 and I can guarantee that those markings are not going to be on the slide when it goes into the hot-blue tank.

Fact of the matter is that it's on the slide, not even the frame. Seems to me that if the BATF wanted it to be a permanent record of importation, they the markings would be on the frame.

Appreciate the answers. I'd love to see that letter too.


Willie

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I've scanned the letter but can't figure out how to attach it. I try the manage attachments screen but the file is too large and gets rejected.

I'll take another look tomorrow.
 
... the new FFL technically may be in violation of 478.125 (e) above since the firearm no longer has the import mark to list the proper importer as required in the bound book.
Click to expand...

That's not how I read the quoted reg. I read it as the requirement of the FFL to enter the importer name data (if any) in his bound book. I don't see how it would be the fault of the FFL (or how HE could be liable) if there was no importer's name on the gun. IF, on the other hand, it has an importer's name, and the FFL does NOT record that data in his book, (along with ser#, etc.) then the FFL is in violation of the record keeping regs. That's what it says to me.

Unlike the serial # law, I don't see anywhere a law that makes a gun without an importer's name an illegal weapon, by and of itself. But then, I'm not a legal expert. There might be some state law about it, somewhere, that I am not aware of.

The real reason for not removing that ugly importer's marking is to prevent the possibility of fraud. War bring back trophy guns are worth more to collectors than the same gun, legally imported after the war (and so marked).
 
Think about it this way: Some weapons were brought back from overseas as personal weapons aquired overseas, and never had an importers mark, ever. Those do not have an "imported by" anyone mark on them anywhere, it was a personal arm, it was not brought back to sell.

If you are worried about it, just find a personal import and it won't have a mark you will want to remove.

IMHO: "imported by XXX" is extranous damage, just like the lable on your mattress that says "do not remove". It is on there for commercial purposes, not private purposes. Serial number are one thing, but "imported by" is completely different.
 
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