Remington JHP 115g +P+ 9mm - Any Good?

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Putting the issue of recoil aside, what are the ballistic pros and cons of a 115g JHP +P+ out of a Kahr MK9 with a 3" barrel? This is not the Golden Sabre hollow point.

[This message has been edited by faiello5 (edited May 13, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faiello5:
Putting the issue of recoil aside, what are the ballistic pros and cons of a 115g JHP +P+ out of a Kahr MK9 with a 3" barrel? This is not the Golden Sabre hollow point.

[This message has been edited by faiello5 (edited May 13, 2000).][/quote]

That was the choice of the USSS (US Secret Service) when they used the 9mm before switching to the .357 Sig. +P+ is a short barrel 9mm is better than standard velocity because you loose quite a bit of velocity with the shorter barrel and 9mms' really need high velocity to work well. I carry the Federal 115gr JHP +P+ the 'BPLE' in my Beretta.
Robb
 
Rob,

Did you get your 9BPLE rounds from a gun store, mail order or gun show.

When I try to buy them I just get the standard, "sorry sir, they are LEO only".

Regards,

Mike H
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike H:
Rob,

Did you get your 9BPLE rounds from a gun store, mail order or gun show.

When I try to buy them I just get the standard, "sorry sir, they are LEO only".

Regards,

Mike H[/quote]

At a show, I think I usually pay about $20 per box of 50. It is completely legal to own its just that Federal like to get waiver signed by Police Depts' saying that they know these rounds will wear a gun out faster than Standard pressure ammo etc. What I think is funny is the NATO pressure ammo you see (the standard US Military load the M882 in white boxes) is actually about the same pressure level and they don't mark Gov't/LEO only on the boxes.
Robb
 
faiello5,

Check out Sshooting Times June 2000 issue now on the newstands. Dick Metcalf did a test of 9mm loads out of a 3.25-inch barrel Taurus.

The Results below are ranked in order of Wound Area, 10% ballistic @ 20ft:

PMC 124gr Starfire - Wound Area: 21.55
Remington 124gr GS - Wound Area: 20.70
Winchester 147gr SXT - Wound Area: 20.42
CCI Blazer 115gr TMJ - Wound Area: 20.06
Federal 115gr JHP - Wound Area: 19.03

The heavier bullets get my vote. I have a MK9 and pratice with Aguila ammo. It's cheap, loaded hot, and print almost exactly like the Remington 124gr+p Golden Sabers I carry for CCW. The +p compensates for the fact that you have a 3" barrel and you are still getting roughly 1,200 fps with a 124gr. bullet. Remember, large holes in vital organs and the heavier bullet will always get my vote.

Regards,
Hann
 
The Rem +P+ goes all the way up to 42K psi, same as some NATO spec ammo. US mil-spec 9mm ammo for pistols is same as SAAMI +P, under 38.5K psi.

I like the Rem 124 GS +P (1180) better than the 115 +P+. Or the 124 HS +P+ (1170), Speer GD 124 +P (1220).

Wound area/volume isn't everything. Some 38 special loads have bigger wound area/volumes than some of the 357 Magnums; I'll take the Magnums every time.

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One thing in the Remington load's favor is that the bullet is shaped in such a way that any pistol that'll feed ball will feed it.

Rosco
 
That's exactly what is in my Kahr Mk9, which is sitting on my right hip at the moment.

I tried the Federal Hydrashok 124gr, but found that it had way too much flash. I've put 100 of the Remington 115gr +P+ through my Mk9 and another hundred through my Glock 17. No failures of any kind.

Fyi, the Fackerlites feel that this round lacks penetration, which you can see at http://www.firearmstactical.com

On the other hand, it is my understanding that this round has been used to good effect by Border Patrol and INS.

Jared
 
M1911 & MK9 Owners,

What do you pratice with on a regular basis, 124gr. ball or 115gr.? Have you found a good pratice round that prints like the Remington 124+pGS in the MK9?

I was at the range today and put around 90 Aguila 124gr. rounds or so through my MK9 and I experienced an unusual failure in the last clip I fired. The slide remained locked open, yet there were sill rounds ready to go in the clip. In essesence the gun acted like it was empty, but there were still rounds to go, so I had to press the slide-release lever to load another round into the chamber. I had to do this three or four times for the last clip. Have you ever experienced this?

I wonder if it's the rounds, or possibly it was due to limp-wristing towards the end of my session (I was a little tired in the wrist). Could it be the ammo? Aguila is about all I have been shooting since I have owned the gun, and they are loaded hot.

This has also occurred on other shooting occations, about 12 in all. I have shot about 450/500 rounds through the gun so far, I interchange between 2 mags during pratice, I should have noted wich one it was, could be the mag? I'll call a Kahr Tech. tommorow.

Please advise,

Thanks.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hann:
M1911 & MK9 Owners,

What do you pratice with on a regular basis, 124gr. ball or 115gr.? Have you found a good pratice round that prints like the Remington 124+pGS in the MK9?

I was at the range today and put around 90 Aguila 124gr. rounds or so through my MK9 and I experienced an unusual failure in the last clip I fired. The slide remained locked open, yet there were sill rounds ready to go in the clip. In essesence the gun acted like it was empty, but there were still rounds to go, so I had to press the slide-release lever to load another round into the chamber. I had to do this three or four times for the last clip. Have you ever experienced this?

I wonder if it's the rounds, or possibly it was due to limp-wristing towards the end of my session (I was a little tired in the wrist). Could it be the ammo? Aguila is about all I have been shooting since I have owned the gun, and they are loaded hot.

This has also occurred on other shooting occations, about 12 in all. I have shot about 450/500 rounds through the gun so far, I interchange between 2 mags during pratice, I should have noted wich one it was, could be the mag? I'll call a Kahr Tech. tommorow.

Please advise,

Thanks.[/quote]

Hann,
You could be accidently bumping the slide stop during recoil, as much as the Kahr stops stick out this can be a problem. Or the rounds can sometimes bump the slide stop during cycling.
Robb




[This message has been edited by Robb (edited May 14, 2000).]
 
FYI

I clocked the Rem +P+ 115 JHPs through my fullsize USP9 at 1230fps which is equivalent to 386 ft-lbs ME. This isn't what I would call +P+ in my opinion. Recoil wasn't much different than my reloads of 124 gr MC which were max standard 9mm. The primers were not indicative of high pressures of 42K as previously stated. I will add that the bullets which were a round shouldered JHP were seated shallow in my opinion. I mic'd them at 1.15 which is right for a FMJ but these JHPs didn't have the nose so they appeared to be not fully seated. Nonetheless the round functioned fine and was accurate enough.

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Hann:

I use 115gr FMJ for practice, usually my own reloads (which are relatively lightly loaded). I haven't noticed any difference between where they impact and the 115gr +p+ Remingtons. Of course, I'm not shooting the Mk9 at 50 yards (and if I was, my aiming errors due to the short sight radius would probably overwhelm any difference due to ballistics).

I haven't tried the 124gr +p Golden Sabre.

For practice, use whatever works in your gun. Regarding Aquila, I've heard some folks say they've had problems with it. I don't have any direct experience.

Regarding the failure of your gun to lock back, have you checked the magazine? Any chance that it is dirty and needs to be cleaned? Do you have the problem with other ammo, or just the Aquila?

Jared
 
Rob & M1911;

Thanks for the advice. I picked up a 150 rounds of Winchester 115gr USA and I will try these to see how they work out. The gun & mags were clean when the malfunctions happened.

Rob, I think what you said could be the problem. I called Kahr about it and the tech. heard of others inadvertently hitting the slide stop during recoil thus causing the malfunction. I will keep a close eye on my grip hold next time I shoot it. I use a thumb crossover type grip and my left thumb comes very close to the slide release when crossed over my right thumb. Could be the problem. As fatigue sets in after 100/150 rounds my thumb is probably hitting the slide release during firing, Dunno but I will let you know.

Either way, Kahr will stand by their product, if indeed, there is a problem.

Thanks again,
Hann
 
I've seen the Rem and Fed 115 +P+ do around 1180 from SIG 228s.

Can't always judge pressure by external signs? Rem says it's max is 42K psi, and some might be if they show it or not visually?

Can't always judge pressure by velocity either; a slower round may be higher pressure, and vice versa.

The ammo makers don't make PDs sign waivers for this stuff for nuthin'. :)

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My apologies for those who have already seen me post this on other threads...

If you want to see how a 115g JHP +P+ out of a Kahr MK9 with a 3" barrel will really perform where it counts, check out my recent post in this forum on a possible inexpensive option for getting ordinance gelatin for terminal ballistics testing of handgun ammo: [Link to invalid post]

There are more and more tests being done now with ordinance gelatin, but seldom do you see the ammo you're interested in tested with the gun you want to test it with. Consider getting some ordinance gelatin and doing the tests yourself -- with your gun and your self-defense ammo.

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M1911, Robb & MK9 Owners

Went to range today and put 100 rounds of the Winchester USA 115gr, 25 of Aguila, and 25 of the Remington +P GS's. Not one malfunction. It must have been the way I was holding the gun with the crossover grip, catching the slide stop with my thumb. The only thing I wound up with is a bandaid on my right thumb where the frame hits it during recoil. It agrevated it enough to take a little spot of skin off. I guess I will have to wear a bandaid placed over that spot next time I shoot so it won't bite my hand. I talked to the rangemaster and she heard of the same problem with virtually all of the other folks who shoot Kahrs, especially the MK series. I wish there was a grip on the market that covered the sharp edge on the frame and make it a non-issue.

I guess any gun is a series of trade-off's. My SIG P230 agrevated the same spot. Any rubber grips out there that are made for the MK series?

The Remington 124-gr+P print excellent at combat range and even better at 3-7 ft. I will stay with the heavier +p bullet @ 1180fps.

Thanks,
 
"I talked to the rangemaster and she heard of the same problem with virtually all of the other folks who shoot Kahrs, especially the MK series."

FWIW: I haven't had this problem with my MK9.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hann:
M1911, Robb & MK9 Owners
The Remington 124-gr+P print excellent at combat range and even better at 3-7 ft.
Thanks,[/quote]

The 124gr+P GS is an excellent round IMHO, heres is a good site that gives some good evaluations of handgun rounds and advocates the 9mm http://greent.com/40Page/
Robb
 
Hann: I don't have such a problem with my Kahr. If the corner of the frame is sharp, send it back to Kahr and have them round it off. Also, I grip the gun very hard. This reduces the movement in my hand. You might try holding the gun very, very firmly and see if that helps.

Jared
 
Oh, also, I'm not quite sure what you mean by a "cross-over" grip. Where is your left thumb? Is it on top of your right thumbnail? Or is it wrapped around the back of the gun, over the back of your right hand?

On top of your right thumbnail, or parallel and below your right thumb is fine. Wrapped around the back of the gun and over the back of your right hand is a bad idea. That position doesn't give as good support and can result in the slide rails hitting your left thumb (and drawing blood).

Jared
NRA Certified Instructor
 
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