Remington is shipping R51’s to original buyers

HA!
Take that all you folk that said they wouldn't!!!
(But I've got no response for those that said they shouldn't)
 
Why do they call it a sub-compact ? I had put it out of my mind so much that I wasn't aware that it was a 9mm !
In any case I had an original and there was a very well designed pistol. Mine was in .380 and it introduced me to handgun hunting . Yes I stalked and shot a woodchuck !!
Corperate idiots do great damage to a company by putting time before quality , safety , advertising !:(
 
It was to be the same size as the original, which would be a pocket pistol about the same size as a Colt M1903 hammerless.

As I said elsewhere, that Pedersen design looks simple, but it isn't; John Pedersen never made anything simple and he was always faced with working around the other John's patents. Poor guy!

And making it in 9mm Parabellum, a far more powerful cartridge than the original was designed for, didn't help any.

Jim
 
Model12Win said:
Is this gun the only Pedersen lock in production?
Yes.
mete said:
Why do they call it a sub-compact ?
Because marketing. ;):p
James K said:
As I said elsewhere, that Pedersen design looks simple, but it isn't; John Pedersen never made anything simple...
+1; as with the Luger toggle lock, the Steyr GB gas-delay system, and the Benelli B-series intertia lock, there's a reason that other gunmakers haven't jumped all over the concept.
 
Lots of delayed blowback systems out there and they've been with us for100 years but still " different " so people are wary of them!:rolleyes:
Rem M51 , a great design, HKP7 gas delay, Beretta PX4 rotating barrel, Benelli pistol toggle action, Benelli shotgun inertia type etc. They all reduce felt recoil except the Savage [which really doesn't do anything ].
If they made the PX4 with a single colum version it would make a great one .
 
mete said:
...delayed blowback systems [such as the]...Beretta PX4 rotating barrel...
Rotating-barrel lockup as used in the Beretta PX4 and 8000 Cougar is a form of short-recoil locked-breech operation and not a form of delayed blowback.

The key is that the rotating barrel doesn't impede the motion of the breech block; it merely keeps the breech and barrel together until after the bullet has left the barrel, as with the more familiar tilting-barrel and locking-block mechanisms.
 
The toggle system as used on the Luger, existed prior to John Browning's barrel dropping lockup system. Not by much, but definitely prior. It started with the rather ungainly Borchardt.

Borchardt pistol

Weaponsman has a blog post about toggle locks in general, although it is short (by his standards) and doesn't even mention the Borchardt.

Toggle locks

Bart Noir
 
As I said elsewhere, that Pedersen design looks simple, but it isn't
It's actually pretty simple if you get a chance to examine one (Model 51 or R51). It's also pretty simple to see how/where Rem screwed up to cause the issues most commonly encountered;
-Cheap mags
-Rough-finished machined parts
-Rough-finished MIM parts (at least these seem to be dimensionally consistent, though)
-Rough and/or short-chambered barrels

I defy a 1911, Glock, M9, or any other pistol design besides an open-bolt blowback to be constructed so poorly & still function. Tokarev's I've seen are much nicer on the inside than the R51 (and yet mine still ran for the most part, and even fairly reliably after some tweaking I shouldn't have been expected to do)

"It was to be the same size as the original, which would be a pocket pistol about the same size as a Colt M1903 hammerless."
Where'd you hear this? It's pretty obvious from the offset barrel/slide muzzle and long/wide magazine that this gun was intended to be a neo-M53 in 45acp at some point. Maybe for a 45acp one might be able to consider it a 'sub compact' but yeah, mostly marketing there (though it does conceal/carry like a much smaller gun, due to there being lots of round corners and a thin overall profile)

"If they made the PX4 with a single colum version it would make a great one"
There's no point in doing so; the rotating barrel necessarily makes the action wide enough to justify a double-stack magazine (it's not like a 1911 where the magwell is fatter than the slide)

"as with the Luger toggle lock, the Steyr GB gas-delay system, and the Benelli B-series intertia lock, there's a reason that other gunmakers haven't jumped all over the concept."
Pretty much all those except the Steyr were what you'd call premium pistols back in the day. Arguably, the M51 was, as well, considering its competition were all simple blowbacks. The Steyr was doomed by very R51-like failures in the suspicious knock-off Rogak feeler-distribution prior to the GB's release (there was also this certain new gun called a Glock 17 that kind of ruined all the best laid plans of mice & Steyr to market a large, ungainly steel pistol)

There's also the FN Five-seveN pistol, which uses a sort of hybrid blowback/delayed blowback. Basically, the barrel is allowed to be dragged back a short ways by case friction early on, loosely coupling the two together like a sort of Thompson Blish Lock long enough for the very brief pressure impulse to drop to safe levels. The addition of some barrel inertia also helps keep the slide velocity low. Supposedly messing around with or removing the teflon coating on the brass impedes this function and leads to unreliable or unsafe operation (in reality it's more to prevent galling in the PS90 magazine). Once again, a fairly premium pistol, though I doubt it really must be so.

Also the HK P9s, which was a miniature MP5, fluted chamber and everything. Again, fairly premium firearm. No reason I can see that all of these MUST be premium guns vs. made more modestly, but it was how they were introduced to the public/military, and a big part of the reason they failed to get the market exposure of the 1911 or later Hi Power.

Not familiar with a pistol using the inertia lock of Benelli/Franchi/etc shotguns, but it'd likely require a lot more felt recoil than short recoil actions (the gun has to move a certain amount in space for the system to move, so the opposite of guns that fail due to 'limp wristing')

TCB
 
Not familiar with a pistol using the inertia lock of Benelli/Franchi/etc shotguns, but it'd likely require a lot more felt recoil than short recoil actions...
I was actually referring to the delayed blowback system used in the B76 pistol and its less-common cousins; it didn't occur to me when I wrote the earlier post that Benelli uses a different inertia-operated locking system in its shotguns.

The B-series pistol uses a unique delayed blowback system that utilizes a lever at the rear of the breech block. The lever extends upwards at an approximately 45° angle and engages a recess inside the slide; the barrel is fixed. On firing, the angled lever quickly shoves the breech block downwards into a locking recess in the frame, the force of the lever pushes the slide back, and the slide continues rearward under its own inertia; this is the reason I referred to it as an "inertia lock". A ledge under the slide then grabs a matching ledge on the top of the breech block, camming it out of engagement with the frame recess, pulling the breech block rearward, and ejecting the fired case.

The advantage of this system is that it uses a fixed barrel for enhanced accuracy. The major disadvantage—as with the R51/R1 Pedersen system—is that there a large number of moving parts that must be carefully "tuned" to work together in concert for the pistol to function properly. The other disadvantages are that the takedown procedure is complicated and that a fairly massive slide and/or stiff recoil spring are needed to prevent the slide from moving too quickly and camming the breech block out of engagement prematurely.

Pardon the slight thread hijack. :)
 
The toggle system as used on the Luger, existed prior to John Browning's barrel dropping lockup system. Not by much, but definitely prior. It started with the rather ungainly Borchardt.

It actually started prior to that: The Maxim machine guns preceded the Borchardt and used a toggle action.
 
The advantage of this system is that it uses a fixed barrel for enhanced accuracy.
I'm personally in the camp that doesn't believe fixed barrels to be intrinsically more accurate since the slide-mounted sights have some slop (I also believe it doesn't matter since we'd only notice this past 100yds). The R51 barrel isn't particularly 'fixed' though, being only pinned loosely in place. What a fixed barrel is great for however, is attaching silencers and longer barrels. Swapping out barrels is as easy as any other platform, but with none of the (strangely absent, I notice) concerns over headspace or inertia being imparted to the links/cams. Would be super easy to mount a 16" barrel on a Pedersen action pistol, and put a foregrip on it no less, without impeding function. Same for suppressors or compensators, both small and large. I was personally looking forward to getting a modern small, high efficiency 9mm can for my R51 at some point, for a silenced defense weapon at home on the nightstand (or in the Tuxedo, Mr. Bond ;))

The major disadvantage—as with the R51/R1 Pedersen system—is that there a large number of moving parts that must be carefully "tuned" to work together in concert for the pistol to function properly
Eh, the R51 has the same number of moving locking parts as a Browning tilt-barrel; 2. Number of parts is only one aspect to a system's complexity or reliability. An AR has a lot more parts than other designs, yet is undeniably efficient where it counts at the breech mechanism. It's best to think of the R51 as a miniaturized FAL, or even SKS if you aren't familiar with the FAL.

And to be honest, I'd say the R51 debacle somewhat proves how resilient the Pedersen design is to, let's just call them "non-optimal" production variances. Rather than requiring careful tuning to ensure a barrel hood isn't binding on a slide, or that the lugs smoothly disengage rather than scraping, that initial 'stutter' of the Pedersen breech block allows for quite a bit of dimensional float to be accommodated without effecting function. It just needs enough movement to get the required slide momentum, and at that point the gap can be increased as far as the case head support allows. And even if something goes wrong, like a shallow chamber, and the action cannot go fully into battery, so long as the locking block is cammed down to where the firing pin may be struck, the action is 'locked' and as safe as any other against failure (even if it won't get the inertia to cycle). Because of this, I'd argue it's more tolerant of headspace and cartridge OAL aberrations, potentially making it more reliable in the face of fouling & cheap ammo. Far more resistant to fully unrestrained ruptures due to opening too soon also, I'd think (since the still-high chamber pressure would make it very hard for the slide to lift the locking block, assuming it is possible for even an overcharged round's pressure curve to last long enough for the slide to get that far back)

"The Maxim machine guns preceded the Borchardt and used a toggle action"
I think he was referring to pistols (no thank-you to a Maxim pistol ;))

TCB
 
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Yeah, I was focused on the Luger and its immediate ancestor. But gyvel is right that the toggle lock goes back much earlier, which is covered by Weaponsman in the link I included.

The earliest I am aware of is the Henry rifle of the 1860s, and its ancestors, which go back into the 1840's I believe. Yes, they were manually operated, but they were toggle locks.

Not everybody knows that the original Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson were part owners of the design and company which the Henry came from. But they sold out to a guy named Winchester and took a look at revolving arms. The rest, yes, is history.

Bart Noir
 
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