Recently started working on a load for my mid 70's Remington 700 in .270. I'm using a hornady oal gage to measure for oal. It seems that my 700 is about .100 farther to the lands than the ruger I have and a friends rifle too. The loads that I shot before I got the oal gage were seated to the cannelure and after measuring it was about .100 from the lands. But it will shoot a 1/2" group at 85 Yards. Does this seem right?
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Remington 700
- Thread starter b-dog
- Start date
Yes, My Remington had so much free bore I just seated my bullets to listed OAL for the bullet & powder. That also was very accurate in 308 caliber, when I reached 4000+ rounds, had a match grade barrel installed, that has much less free bore. Never used bullets with a cannelure. I use the rifle for benchrest only.
My Remington 700 in .308 parallels what cw308 posted. The freebore was long so seating just off the lands with match bullets wasn't an option. I did true the action years ago and the rifle is a great shooter. Eventually it will see a new barrel but there is no need right now.
Ron
Ron
ammo.crafter
New member
700
Is this something that is enherant with Remington 700?
Now I want to check OAL in my Remington 600.
Is this something that is enherant with Remington 700?
Now I want to check OAL in my Remington 600.
Is this something that is enherant with Remington 700?
According to Rumor Control Central Remington 700 rifles going back to the early 90s have a long leade or bullet jump to the rifling. While I can't speak for all rifles that has been true of the Remington 700 rifles I have. My best groups with my .308 Winchester rifle were about 0.4" at 100 yards so I have not bothered with trying to seat on the lands. Like cw 308 I seat according to the load data. Anyway, yes, the general consensus is they have a long leade and that has been my experience with them.
Ron
My first rifle was a Model 700 in .270, bought in 1968, and the freebore was so great I could not load a 100gr bullet if I tried to seat it close to the leade, it would fall out of the case. It never did shoot a group near 1 inch but it was sufficient for hunting. I burned the barrel out after 25 years and Remington installed a new one at no cost (!!). The freebore is MUCH less and I can seat to 0.150" which is usually where I find the best accuracy in other calibers as well. About 2 years ago I bought the new stainless Model 700 in .270 and the freebore in that is such that I seat any bullets anywhere I want.
I might add, for whatever it's worth, for those who may not know: the cannelure is not a target for seating your bullets. Since rifle cartridges generally do not need crimping, what's it there for? It is where the core gets locked to control bullet expansion.
That's important because I recall a time, maybe 20 years ago, when Hornady changed the position of the cannelure on the .277 150gr Spire points - or Roundnose - I don't recall now which. I noticed it only because I was seating 0.150" from the leade and the newer seated lot was obviously different. I thought I somehow had seated them wrong until I measured the distance from the base to the cannelure on the old and new lots. If one had used the cannelure as a seat position, it certainly would have changed the expected accuracy results.
I might add, for whatever it's worth, for those who may not know: the cannelure is not a target for seating your bullets. Since rifle cartridges generally do not need crimping, what's it there for? It is where the core gets locked to control bullet expansion.
That's important because I recall a time, maybe 20 years ago, when Hornady changed the position of the cannelure on the .277 150gr Spire points - or Roundnose - I don't recall now which. I noticed it only because I was seating 0.150" from the leade and the newer seated lot was obviously different. I thought I somehow had seated them wrong until I measured the distance from the base to the cannelure on the old and new lots. If one had used the cannelure as a seat position, it certainly would have changed the expected accuracy results.
boondocker385
New member
My 243, also from the mid 1990s, is the same. I load per recipe and it is very accurate. I have tried maxing out the length with no discernable change in accuracy
With the new barrel on my 700, l could adjust the bullet to minor jump. Found a setting of a .006 jam very accurate also a .009 jump with a Sierra 168 gr.HPBT bullet as well. With a barrel that has so much leads ( free bore ) you can only jump, there is a jump that will be just as tight, with the right bullet & powder.
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JeepHammer
Moderator
As a smith, I find Remington rifles have long throats.
I don't want to turn this into a gunsmith thread,
But having that barrel pulled, adding a thread or two to the barrel,
Then trimming the back end for length,
You can 'Tune Up' the chamber.
By moving the barrel backwards, you can use a chamber reamer with a 'Short' throat/free bore,
It will usually allow you to shoot factory & common reloads more accurately.
I don't want to turn this into a gunsmith thread,
But having that barrel pulled, adding a thread or two to the barrel,
Then trimming the back end for length,
You can 'Tune Up' the chamber.
By moving the barrel backwards, you can use a chamber reamer with a 'Short' throat/free bore,
It will usually allow you to shoot factory & common reloads more accurately.
JeepHammer
Wish I had the knowledge & equipment to do really serious gunsmithing. When it comes to cutting a barrel, that's the Big Leagues. Changing triggers, stripping my Rem 700 bolt and bedding is my limit. Also reloading the most accurate rounds I can, just love the hobby.
Wish I had the knowledge & equipment to do really serious gunsmithing. When it comes to cutting a barrel, that's the Big Leagues. Changing triggers, stripping my Rem 700 bolt and bedding is my limit. Also reloading the most accurate rounds I can, just love the hobby.
JeepHammer
Moderator
A 'Pass Theough' lathe head makes this a snap.
Simply order a chamber reamer with the 'Leade' or 'Free Bore' you are looking for,
Move the barrel backwards in the reciever, adding a couple extra threads, trimming the chamber end of the barrel.
Once the barrel is trimmed, you simply screw the reciever back on the barrel and take your time, shave a little off the chamber (chamber reamer) and try the bolt with a SAAMI spec. round or dummy round.
I use a plastic filiment (Plasti-Gauge) to determine headspace clearance, down to 0.0005",
And then check freebore to see if its where I want it.
I cut chambers in three cuts when I'm doing custom barrels,
All in one to get *About* where I'm going,
Then cut the body with the shoulder where it should be,
Then cut the throat/free bore where I want it,
Sometimes ending with a fourth cut for the taper into the rifling...
Depends on if the firearm is shooting a round nose bullet or long, high BC bullet.
99.99% of the time an all in one chamber reamer is just fine, but be aware different companies grind reamers differently, a 'SAAMI' reamer doesn't always produce 'SAAMI' chambers, and its usually the fault of the reamer since it wasn't SAAMI to start with...
Factory reamers are often the worst,
They are really LONG bars of reamer stock, as they dull they are RE-sharpened in house,
Usually on a profile grinder that's older than I am, NOT CNC,
One speck of dust or grit or shaving on the profile ramps and you get an odd shaped reamer...
I order my SHORT reamers from reputable companies that produce on CNC hardware, use as large/rigid extention bar as I can get away with,
And lube the crap out of the cutter/chamber,
Result is a nice, smooth chamber that is dead stright with the bore,
And if needed for some odd chamber, cut it in three or four steps.
No misaligned reamers on skinny/flexable rods pulled into the barrel from the muzzle, unsupported from the chamber end,
No 'Reground' reamers on worn, antique machines,
No reaming until the bolt closes on a dummy and calling it 'Good'...
Simply order a chamber reamer with the 'Leade' or 'Free Bore' you are looking for,
Move the barrel backwards in the reciever, adding a couple extra threads, trimming the chamber end of the barrel.
Once the barrel is trimmed, you simply screw the reciever back on the barrel and take your time, shave a little off the chamber (chamber reamer) and try the bolt with a SAAMI spec. round or dummy round.
I use a plastic filiment (Plasti-Gauge) to determine headspace clearance, down to 0.0005",
And then check freebore to see if its where I want it.
I cut chambers in three cuts when I'm doing custom barrels,
All in one to get *About* where I'm going,
Then cut the body with the shoulder where it should be,
Then cut the throat/free bore where I want it,
Sometimes ending with a fourth cut for the taper into the rifling...
Depends on if the firearm is shooting a round nose bullet or long, high BC bullet.
99.99% of the time an all in one chamber reamer is just fine, but be aware different companies grind reamers differently, a 'SAAMI' reamer doesn't always produce 'SAAMI' chambers, and its usually the fault of the reamer since it wasn't SAAMI to start with...
Factory reamers are often the worst,
They are really LONG bars of reamer stock, as they dull they are RE-sharpened in house,
Usually on a profile grinder that's older than I am, NOT CNC,
One speck of dust or grit or shaving on the profile ramps and you get an odd shaped reamer...
I order my SHORT reamers from reputable companies that produce on CNC hardware, use as large/rigid extention bar as I can get away with,
And lube the crap out of the cutter/chamber,
Result is a nice, smooth chamber that is dead stright with the bore,
And if needed for some odd chamber, cut it in three or four steps.
No misaligned reamers on skinny/flexable rods pulled into the barrel from the muzzle, unsupported from the chamber end,
No 'Reground' reamers on worn, antique machines,
No reaming until the bolt closes on a dummy and calling it 'Good'...
JeepHammer
Moderator
*IF* people saw how these 'Production' rifles were made, they would freak out!
Steel tubing chopped off on a hack saw, ground with a smooth front face that IS NOT square with the bore of the tubing,
And that cocks the barrel sideways in any of the 360* of the circle.
Then shoved into a threading jig, using what's essentially a pipe threaded tap,
Again, NOT aligning the threads with the bore of the tubing.
Now you have TWO places the barrel doesn't line up with the reciever,
Your optics mount on the reciever, so the optics are never going to line up with the barrel...
Barrel stock is mounted between pointed 'Centers' so it can be cut with a taper,
And threading is usually done on the lathe,
So the barrel is usually pretty accurate,
BUT,
The barrel is screwed into the reciever (misaligned),
Then its chambered (misaligned) to the bore of the barrel.
Most people dismiss this, but its true, and when you send a rifle to the 'Custom Shop' the first thing they do is pull the barrel,
Square the reciever/threads on a lathe,
Shorten the chamber and rechamber on the lathe they shortened the barrel on, while everything is dead stright/square.
People rant and rave about 'Custom Shop' work rifles, but the factory 'Custom Shops' are simply correcting manufacturing mistakes...
A lathe with pass through head so the barrel can stick through the chuck/head (out the back) will allow you to center the barrel ONCE, do your cuts, thread the reciever back on and chamber as you like.
I usually chuck up/center the reciever, face off the front SQUARE, and strighten the threads with the bore so when I screw it on the barrel later, it actually spins true instead of wobbling around like a throw on a crank shaft!
When the reciever is squared up, its also a good time to get the optics mount holes on a stright line with the reciever/bore...
The tool bed will allow you to evaluate the mounting holes/mount rail for optics,
And scribe/drill proper holes if nessary.
Steel tubing chopped off on a hack saw, ground with a smooth front face that IS NOT square with the bore of the tubing,
And that cocks the barrel sideways in any of the 360* of the circle.
Then shoved into a threading jig, using what's essentially a pipe threaded tap,
Again, NOT aligning the threads with the bore of the tubing.
Now you have TWO places the barrel doesn't line up with the reciever,
Your optics mount on the reciever, so the optics are never going to line up with the barrel...
Barrel stock is mounted between pointed 'Centers' so it can be cut with a taper,
And threading is usually done on the lathe,
So the barrel is usually pretty accurate,
BUT,
The barrel is screwed into the reciever (misaligned),
Then its chambered (misaligned) to the bore of the barrel.
Most people dismiss this, but its true, and when you send a rifle to the 'Custom Shop' the first thing they do is pull the barrel,
Square the reciever/threads on a lathe,
Shorten the chamber and rechamber on the lathe they shortened the barrel on, while everything is dead stright/square.
People rant and rave about 'Custom Shop' work rifles, but the factory 'Custom Shops' are simply correcting manufacturing mistakes...
A lathe with pass through head so the barrel can stick through the chuck/head (out the back) will allow you to center the barrel ONCE, do your cuts, thread the reciever back on and chamber as you like.
I usually chuck up/center the reciever, face off the front SQUARE, and strighten the threads with the bore so when I screw it on the barrel later, it actually spins true instead of wobbling around like a throw on a crank shaft!
When the reciever is squared up, its also a good time to get the optics mount holes on a stright line with the reciever/bore...
The tool bed will allow you to evaluate the mounting holes/mount rail for optics,
And scribe/drill proper holes if nessary.
*IF* people saw how these 'Production' rifles were made, they would freak out!
Steel tubing chopped off on a hack saw, ground with a smooth front face that IS NOT square with the bore of the tubing,
And that cocks the barrel sideways in any of the 360* of the circle.
Then shoved into a threading jig, using what's essentially a pipe threaded tap,
Again, NOT aligning the threads with the bore of the tubing.
Now you have TWO places the barrel doesn't line up with the receiver,
Your optics mount on the receiver, so the optics are never going to line up with the barrel...
Years ago, about 20 of them give or take, my brother-in-law and I would take summer courses at Montgomery Community College in Troy N.C. A few of the rifle smith NRA courses were taught by a great smith named Mr. James Messer. It was amazing how barrels were off center exactly as covered here. First thing was remove the barrel and true the shoulder and then true the action. I had a jig for Remington 700 actions. The cool part was once the barrel shoulder and the receiver were trued you could gently hand screw the barrel into the receiver. Then try to unscrew that barrel. The hand force needed was amazing simply because when both surfaces were trued and they mated the bearing surface area really increased. This also removed the unwanted stress points. To this day I have never forgotten the lessons learned and we only took those NRA courses as a summer get away. I believe James Messer still teaches the rifle smithing courses. Anyway this all goes back to exactly what JeepHammer points out so well. Never for a moment believe that a Remington or many other barreled receiver groups are actually true out of the factory. The material removed just to true the action and barrel tells a story.
Ron
JeepHammer
Moderator
What always amazes people is when you true barrel with receiver,
Then true the optics mounting with barrel & receiver,
SUDDENLY the rifle shoots within 1% or 2% of ballistics tables like clockwork...
Dial in and shoot, point of aim is point of impact.
Your sight line isn't skewed on the receiver, the barrel isn't skewed with sight line or receiver...
It simply gives your bullet a fighting chance to true with the line of sight...
So those fancy knobs with fancy graduations marked on the knobs start to mean something,
You don't look at ballistic tables and think, 'Total Crap, doesn't shoot anywhere near that...'
'Premium' ammo starts to mean something,
And you can get off the short ranges and do some long range shooting,
The built in bullet drop compensators and drift compensators start working in the fancy optics, and you simply have a better chance of hitting your target.
ANY rifle can be 'Zeroed' at 100 yards,
Only properly aligned/fitted rifles will shoot on the ballistics tables,
Or shoot '4 Square',
So if you only punch paper at 100 yards, then any rifle/optic will do.
If you want to punch targets anything from muzzle to the limits where the bullet goes transonic, then consider truing the receiver/optics mounts.
While the barrel is in the lathe, its also a good idea to make sure the chamber is what you want...
You do the rifle ONCE,
You will shoot THOUSANDS of rounds of ammo,
With a proper chamber, it will shoot all ammo better.
Then true the optics mounting with barrel & receiver,
SUDDENLY the rifle shoots within 1% or 2% of ballistics tables like clockwork...
Dial in and shoot, point of aim is point of impact.
Your sight line isn't skewed on the receiver, the barrel isn't skewed with sight line or receiver...
It simply gives your bullet a fighting chance to true with the line of sight...
So those fancy knobs with fancy graduations marked on the knobs start to mean something,
You don't look at ballistic tables and think, 'Total Crap, doesn't shoot anywhere near that...'
'Premium' ammo starts to mean something,
And you can get off the short ranges and do some long range shooting,
The built in bullet drop compensators and drift compensators start working in the fancy optics, and you simply have a better chance of hitting your target.
ANY rifle can be 'Zeroed' at 100 yards,
Only properly aligned/fitted rifles will shoot on the ballistics tables,
Or shoot '4 Square',
So if you only punch paper at 100 yards, then any rifle/optic will do.
If you want to punch targets anything from muzzle to the limits where the bullet goes transonic, then consider truing the receiver/optics mounts.
While the barrel is in the lathe, its also a good idea to make sure the chamber is what you want...
You do the rifle ONCE,
You will shoot THOUSANDS of rounds of ammo,
With a proper chamber, it will shoot all ammo better.