reynolds357
New member
The only problem with Howa is that they are hard to get the barrels off of if you ever need to. You will most likely have to pressure relieve the barrel in a lathe before you can get it to screw off.
Remington 700 or the Howa 1500 for accuracy?
- Thread starter wdallis
- Start date
Never had a Remington, but as others have stated, Howa builds the barreled action for the Weatherby Vanguard line. I had a Vanguard in 308 and all I can say is that it was more accurate than I am.
I can also say, I'm seriously looking at a Weatherby Vanguard Deluxe in 257 Wby Mag. The Vanguard Series 2 are now finished in the USA, from what I'm reading.
Nunya
I can also say, I'm seriously looking at a Weatherby Vanguard Deluxe in 257 Wby Mag. The Vanguard Series 2 are now finished in the USA, from what I'm reading.
Nunya
Renolds 357, you are 100% correct.
I almost always have to cut a relief in the barrel at the shoulder to get them out. So installing a muzzle break on a Howa involves cutting the relief and them machining the barrel back a full thread so the stampings all come out looking right when the barrel is re-installed. Next you need to thread the muzzle concentric with the bore and fit the break. Then we do the finish.
Then we need to re-chamber it to the correct depth so it headspaces when it's turned back into the receiver.
And no amount of mail to Howa's importer makes them address this problem.
But despite this policy of turning the barrels into to about 1000 FT Pounds, I still respect Howa actions and barrels. If the barrel is shot out we can cut it out and we are tossing it anyway. If Howa was paying attention they would factory thread them all, and that would eliminate about 99% of the gunsmithing problems and customer complaints.
I almost always have to cut a relief in the barrel at the shoulder to get them out. So installing a muzzle break on a Howa involves cutting the relief and them machining the barrel back a full thread so the stampings all come out looking right when the barrel is re-installed. Next you need to thread the muzzle concentric with the bore and fit the break. Then we do the finish.
Then we need to re-chamber it to the correct depth so it headspaces when it's turned back into the receiver.
And no amount of mail to Howa's importer makes them address this problem.
But despite this policy of turning the barrels into to about 1000 FT Pounds, I still respect Howa actions and barrels. If the barrel is shot out we can cut it out and we are tossing it anyway. If Howa was paying attention they would factory thread them all, and that would eliminate about 99% of the gunsmithing problems and customer complaints.
I have owned at least 7 remington 700s and never had any problem with any of them. All have been from accurate to very accurate with loads they like. No problems with triggers but I don't adjust them down to super low pull weights. Most of the time I never mess with them. My rifles are for hunting not bench rest shooting.
In the Hunting Rifle by Clay Harvey he stated that remingtons were a favorite or reloaders to exceed book loads. They would load rounds so hot that the bolt handle had to be hit with a 2x4 to open the action. Gee, I wonder why the bolt handles came unwelded?
I reload but do not exceed book loads. The 308 I mentioned in the other post will be for reduced loads using 170gr 30-30 bullets at around 2400fps. That should be fine for the close hunting I prefer to do.
In the Hunting Rifle by Clay Harvey he stated that remingtons were a favorite or reloaders to exceed book loads. They would load rounds so hot that the bolt handle had to be hit with a 2x4 to open the action. Gee, I wonder why the bolt handles came unwelded?
I reload but do not exceed book loads. The 308 I mentioned in the other post will be for reduced loads using 170gr 30-30 bullets at around 2400fps. That should be fine for the close hunting I prefer to do.
Yes Ratshooter.
I should have been more specific.
Nearly all the need I have to unscrew the barrels on Howa actions is for the purpose of threading the muzzles for muzzle breaks. I should have written "factory thread the muzzles".
If they were to run 9/16X24 and 5/8X24 threads on all of them and simply put muzzle caps on, the whole issue of the tight barrel installations would cease to be a problem.
I should have been more specific.
Nearly all the need I have to unscrew the barrels on Howa actions is for the purpose of threading the muzzles for muzzle breaks. I should have written "factory thread the muzzles".
If they were to run 9/16X24 and 5/8X24 threads on all of them and simply put muzzle caps on, the whole issue of the tight barrel installations would cease to be a problem.
As the OP asked about the Remington M700 vs the Howa, I have three Remington M700s, two in 30-06 and the other a .35 Whelen. A good friend from church has a Howa in 30-06 and I fell to the pleasant task of doing the basic sighting in for him for an upcoming deer hunt. Comparing the tree 30-06 rifles, one 700 a BDL, another in the Classic style his Howa outshot my two very well tuned 700's by a good quarter of an MOA. 
SAs this rifle is intended for a woman's use, I think the suggestion of a 7-08 is a good one. A .260 Rem. might also be an option but I've noticed that ammo is a lot harder to find for that round. Apparently the OP is also a handloader so dropping back a hair to factory 7x57 levels would be an option. A 140 gr. bullet at the 2600 FPS level is good for most deer hunting and might be more comfortable for the lady. Still be a decent deer load to about 200 yards IMO.
I shoot the 7x57 but handload it to 7-08 velocities. I replaced a scope on a role the other day (7x57 Mauser custom) and as I had no reloads made up shot a box of Winchester factory ammo to get the basic sighting in done. The difference in recoil compared to my reloads was quite noticeable, not that I'm recoil shy. I'll probably be using my 7x57 on my upcoming elk hunt. Looking at three bullets,the 140 gr. Nobler Partition, 140 gr. Barnes TSX and the Nosler 150 gr. ABLR. The 140's at 2800 FPS plus and the 150 about 2700-2750 FPS should reach out and touch something as ranges I'm comfortable with. Do give the 7-08 some thought.
Paul B.
SAs this rifle is intended for a woman's use, I think the suggestion of a 7-08 is a good one. A .260 Rem. might also be an option but I've noticed that ammo is a lot harder to find for that round. Apparently the OP is also a handloader so dropping back a hair to factory 7x57 levels would be an option. A 140 gr. bullet at the 2600 FPS level is good for most deer hunting and might be more comfortable for the lady. Still be a decent deer load to about 200 yards IMO.
I shoot the 7x57 but handload it to 7-08 velocities. I replaced a scope on a role the other day (7x57 Mauser custom) and as I had no reloads made up shot a box of Winchester factory ammo to get the basic sighting in done. The difference in recoil compared to my reloads was quite noticeable, not that I'm recoil shy. I'll probably be using my 7x57 on my upcoming elk hunt. Looking at three bullets,the 140 gr. Nobler Partition, 140 gr. Barnes TSX and the Nosler 150 gr. ABLR. The 140's at 2800 FPS plus and the 150 about 2700-2750 FPS should reach out and touch something as ranges I'm comfortable with. Do give the 7-08 some thought.
Paul B.
Thanks Wyosmith that cleared it up. For a minute I thought you were saying the barrels were pressed in and had to be threaded to replace.
I am still wondering what customer complaints about Howa you have heard.
As for the 7-08 I think its a fine choice for a woman and a better pick than the 243. I just like bigga bullets.
Last year I went on a youth hunt for the Joshua Tx FFA and a 15 year old girl who is a distant relative used my 7-08. I have an older remington model 7 with the walnut stock and 18.5" barrel with a VX-1 2x7 on it. I loaded Sierra 120gr Pro Hunter bullets to what should be around 2600fps. She shot two deer the first day about 5 minutes apart and killed a third deer the next afternoon. All dropped with one shot apiece. Nothing wrong with the 7-08.
I am still wondering what customer complaints about Howa you have heard.
As for the 7-08 I think its a fine choice for a woman and a better pick than the 243. I just like bigga bullets.
Last year I went on a youth hunt for the Joshua Tx FFA and a 15 year old girl who is a distant relative used my 7-08. I have an older remington model 7 with the walnut stock and 18.5" barrel with a VX-1 2x7 on it. I loaded Sierra 120gr Pro Hunter bullets to what should be around 2600fps. She shot two deer the first day about 5 minutes apart and killed a third deer the next afternoon. All dropped with one shot apiece. Nothing wrong with the 7-08.
That's very good lesson Wyosmith
What confuses me is the Marines have stuck with what some say is an inferior sniper base platform for 50 YEARS, despite all the armorer modifications needed. Maybe they just like the receiver which don't make sense.
The expense thing is difficult to swallow because sniper rifles ain't issued to every grunt but to a small elite unit so they wouldn't need that many rifles and parts, etc.
Nowadays they could probably find one that would need less modifying and save $ in the long run if they wanted to.
What confuses me is the Marines have stuck with what some say is an inferior sniper base platform for 50 YEARS, despite all the armorer modifications needed. Maybe they just like the receiver which don't make sense.
The expense thing is difficult to swallow because sniper rifles ain't issued to every grunt but to a small elite unit so they wouldn't need that many rifles and parts, etc.
Nowadays they could probably find one that would need less modifying and save $ in the long run if they wanted to.
reynolds357
New member
Wyosmith, the builder who taught me how to get barrels off the Howa told me that they are not really torqued that tight, but they are put on hot barrel into hot action. He says when they cool, it effectively locks them in place. I never asked him how he knew that. For all I know, he could have made it up. Back in the day he did a lot of work on Weatherby.He may or may not know what he is talking about. I honestly have no idea.
I've had the Remington in a 243. Never owned a Howa. I am 5 ft 2 inches and quite small. I shoot a Tikka in 243 in a T3 Lite. Also have a Ruger American in 7-08. The Tikka has little to no recoil for a woman. And needs no trigger work or any other work that I have seen. It's been a lot kinder for being able to shoot 87 grain varmit bullets up to 100 grain hunting bullets. The Remington would only shoot heavy bullets. Can't remember the twist rate of either one but a 85 grain Barnes TTS at 3200 fps kills my deer dead in tracks. The 100 grain Noslers do a good job also. And for plinking I just load up a bunch of cheap 87 grain V Max. It's good to 300 yards for me with the 100 grain. Wind being right my husband shoots steel at 600 with it. If a 90 grain arrow will leave a good blood trail at 320 fps I wouldn't worry about a 90 grain bullet at super sonic speeds leaving a blood trail.
You and I both marvel at it JJ45, but I do have some insights as I was one of those Marines that was issued an M-40.
You say "What confuses me is the Marines have stuck with what some say is an inferior sniper base platform for 50 YEARS, despite all the armorer modifications needed. Maybe they just like the receiver which don't make sense."
I was a scout sniper, not an armorer, but I am telling you what the officers in the Armores section told me.
It was not as bad then as it is now. I was issued an M40. Not an A1 or A2,A3 A4 or A5. Our rifles had wood that came from Remington and barrels that came from Remington, but many had been rebarreled and those barrels came from HS Precission (so I was told)
Now stocks are ordered from McMillain (and some others I am told from time to time), Barrels from Schneider, bottom metal from Badger, scope mounts from Redfield and later Leupold (and some others on the A3 A4 and A5 I am told. These parts are ordered by the hundreds. So canceling a US Government order is not something the USMC does by itself. It has to go through the DOD and the Navy when orders are placed or canceled and all orders for ANYTHING new go through a process that is mind numbing.
"The expense thing is difficult to swallow because sniper rifles ain't issued to every grunt but to a small elite unit so they wouldn't need that many rifles and parts, etc."
Again remember that the rifles are not the expencive part. The supply system is involved as is CNET (Central Naval Education & Training) You can't change anything in the system without CNET writing a new manual for its use and support. Then a new school has to be formed to train all the suport troops from supply people, ordnance support, requisitions and budget, new tooling new armorers tools and everything else that the average shooter doesn't even think about.
"Nowadays they could probably find one that would need less modifying and save $ in the long run if they wanted to."
We did want to, but the line troop is not the one in charge. In fact, as a line troop I bet I'd get less attention from the commanding general than he'd give to 10 mothers that wrote letters. It may seem ludicrous, but that how it was and I am certain it still is. I wonder if even a Marine General could make the call himself. It may be that he'd need to get the go-ahead from DOD. That was well above my pay grade.
What I can tell you as a gunsmith is that many many other rifles give better service than the off the shelf Remington M-700. If you want to do all the up-grades you can to a 700 you end up with a VERY good rifle, but in my opinion if you did all that could be done the finished rifles would still not be as good as a new Winchester or Ruger with only about 20% as much time and money spent on the Winchester or Ruger as you did on the Remington.
You say "What confuses me is the Marines have stuck with what some say is an inferior sniper base platform for 50 YEARS, despite all the armorer modifications needed. Maybe they just like the receiver which don't make sense."
I was a scout sniper, not an armorer, but I am telling you what the officers in the Armores section told me.
It was not as bad then as it is now. I was issued an M40. Not an A1 or A2,A3 A4 or A5. Our rifles had wood that came from Remington and barrels that came from Remington, but many had been rebarreled and those barrels came from HS Precission (so I was told)
Now stocks are ordered from McMillain (and some others I am told from time to time), Barrels from Schneider, bottom metal from Badger, scope mounts from Redfield and later Leupold (and some others on the A3 A4 and A5 I am told. These parts are ordered by the hundreds. So canceling a US Government order is not something the USMC does by itself. It has to go through the DOD and the Navy when orders are placed or canceled and all orders for ANYTHING new go through a process that is mind numbing.
"The expense thing is difficult to swallow because sniper rifles ain't issued to every grunt but to a small elite unit so they wouldn't need that many rifles and parts, etc."
Again remember that the rifles are not the expencive part. The supply system is involved as is CNET (Central Naval Education & Training) You can't change anything in the system without CNET writing a new manual for its use and support. Then a new school has to be formed to train all the suport troops from supply people, ordnance support, requisitions and budget, new tooling new armorers tools and everything else that the average shooter doesn't even think about.
"Nowadays they could probably find one that would need less modifying and save $ in the long run if they wanted to."
We did want to, but the line troop is not the one in charge. In fact, as a line troop I bet I'd get less attention from the commanding general than he'd give to 10 mothers that wrote letters. It may seem ludicrous, but that how it was and I am certain it still is. I wonder if even a Marine General could make the call himself. It may be that he'd need to get the go-ahead from DOD. That was well above my pay grade.
What I can tell you as a gunsmith is that many many other rifles give better service than the off the shelf Remington M-700. If you want to do all the up-grades you can to a 700 you end up with a VERY good rifle, but in my opinion if you did all that could be done the finished rifles would still not be as good as a new Winchester or Ruger with only about 20% as much time and money spent on the Winchester or Ruger as you did on the Remington.
handlerer2
New member
I have and have owned Mdl 700's, Vanguard, MKV, Cooper Mdl22, InterarmsMKX, Marlin, Wincesters, Rugers and Browning.
The Howa-Vanguard is actually a version on the Sako L-61. There's a story.
The Mdl 700's are drilled bar stock, fused bolt, washered recoil lug design about as different from the Howa 1500 as you can get and still share the push feed design.
The Howa design is solid and heavy. The receiver is machined from a solid steel billet, not machined from a piece of pipe. The bolt is also machined from a solid steel billet, handle and all, recoil lug is machined integrally with the receiver.
I can't really bash the new designs, all the modern pushfeeds Mdl 700, Tikka, Browning, Savage work really well. The makers pretty much had to change to stay in business.
The pushfeeds were originally designed as a simpler more economical rifle eliminating as many machining steps as possible, from Mauser designs. Excellent rifles were made by Sako, MS, Walther, Schultz&Larsen, ect. Eventually there are the modern versions. The Rem 700 is the first that I'm aware of.
This design became the Chevy small block of riflery. You can make it do almost anything. It can be an economy hunter, a classic sporter, a varmint rifle, a sniper rifle. You can take the design and sharpen it into match winning machine.
The idea that the 700 design is intrinsically more accurate than the 1500 is preposterous IMO. More people build them, simpler and cheaper.
My only gripe about the Pipefeeds is that the only difference I can see between a Tikka and a Marlin, or Ruger American is finish. That a Tikka should cost $200 more than a Howa is absurd!
The Howa-Vanguard is actually a version on the Sako L-61. There's a story.
The Mdl 700's are drilled bar stock, fused bolt, washered recoil lug design about as different from the Howa 1500 as you can get and still share the push feed design.
The Howa design is solid and heavy. The receiver is machined from a solid steel billet, not machined from a piece of pipe. The bolt is also machined from a solid steel billet, handle and all, recoil lug is machined integrally with the receiver.
I can't really bash the new designs, all the modern pushfeeds Mdl 700, Tikka, Browning, Savage work really well. The makers pretty much had to change to stay in business.
The pushfeeds were originally designed as a simpler more economical rifle eliminating as many machining steps as possible, from Mauser designs. Excellent rifles were made by Sako, MS, Walther, Schultz&Larsen, ect. Eventually there are the modern versions. The Rem 700 is the first that I'm aware of.
This design became the Chevy small block of riflery. You can make it do almost anything. It can be an economy hunter, a classic sporter, a varmint rifle, a sniper rifle. You can take the design and sharpen it into match winning machine.
The idea that the 700 design is intrinsically more accurate than the 1500 is preposterous IMO. More people build them, simpler and cheaper.
My only gripe about the Pipefeeds is that the only difference I can see between a Tikka and a Marlin, or Ruger American is finish. That a Tikka should cost $200 more than a Howa is absurd!
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