Rem 700 .243 Winchester Leade distance question

Wallyl

New member
I have a 1977 .243 Win 700 that I shoot fairly often with mostly cast bullets. In the 40+ years I have shot 1,000 + Jacketed bullets through it and well over 10,000 Cast bullets (95 SP-GC RCBS). I have noticed erratic groups that have been getting worse. So I took a fired case and crimped the case mouth, inserted a 105 grain j-bullet base first, loaded long to determine the distance from the case mouth to the leade---it was at .394". I would guess that the throat is "shot out" and it would be best to rebarrel it. Can anyone tell me that has a 700 in the .243 Win what their "leade distance" is?



Thank you....
 
I have a Rem.700 in 308 Stock Remington barrels do have alot of lease normally . You do have a large round count . I could never load my stock barrel to come even close to the rifling . After 4000+ jacketed bullets I had the rifle completely blueprinted when I had a match grade barrel installed . I only shoot benchrest . You could give Accurate Ordanance a call , they work on Rem.700's .With rifles hwith alot of free bore I found working with listed recommended OAL then measure the ogive setting and work with powder charges to fine the best hgroupings . When the groups start to open up your kind of stuck and to rebarrel may be the only way to go . I'm getting close to 4000 on this match grade barrel , may have another barrel installed before next shooting season. When your into accuracy once a barrel is shot out easiest way is to change . Saves on our sanity too . Hope I Helped in some way .

Chris
 
Thanks, Chris.

The .243 Win is known for being a barrel burner. I have found a new Rem 700 SS .243 Win replacement barrel ...now I have to find a shop in my locale that will install it.

I have a 26" long Rem .308 Win 700 rifle--with a a target barrel. It is very accurate. I enjoy shooting it. My old .243 Win was my first Bolt Action rifle. It used to be impressively accurate and I aim to get it that way once again.
 
Wally ,
I know the 243 is a tack driver . Glad your giving it a new live , you won't regret it . My one and only is my 700 in 308 for15+ years , I just keep on changing barrels . Be Well .

Chris
 
Chris,

This year I purchased a new 7mm-08 just to try out a new caliber. It is in between the .243 Win & the .308 Win. Had lots of enjoyment shooting it and have put 600+ rounds through it, mostly with cast bullets. So far the .308 Win has proven to be teh most accurate. However the 7mm-08 is a Savage Axis; my .308 Win is a heavy target barreled Rem 700.
 
"...known for being a barrel burner..." A well known Internet myth. Have a COOEY M71(for about 40 years at a guess.) with far more than 1,000 rounds through it that shoots exactly the same as it always has.
"...from the case mouth to the leade..." Whatever "the leade" is supposed to be doesn't matter. From the case mouth to the rifling doesn't either. Every chamber is slightly different so every rifle's distance to the rifling will be different too.
10,000 Cast bullets won't do squat to steel. But you might be seeing some leading. Just as you might be seeing some throat erosion. You can buy a gauge for that from Brownell's I think. They show .30 Carbine, .30-06 and 7.62NATO throat erosion gauges. Most of which are on Back Order, naturally.
"...erratic groups..." Can be caused by a bunch of issues. A loose screw anywhere, for example.
There is the "I want one." factor though. That's a reason.
 
From what I read at 1,500 shots the accuracy is reduced in the .243 Win caliber....so you have 500 rounds to go.
 
Here's an article about barrel erosion...it describes how my barrel is acting and maybe of interest.

len Zediker

Rifle barrel chamber throat erosion was the topic last time, and mostly its causes and the effects. Short retake: The barrel “throat” is the area directly ahead of the case neck area cut into the chamber. This is the area that receives the majority of the “flame cutting” created by burning propellant gases. When a barrel “quits” it’s from deterioration in the throat. The greatest enemy to sustained accuracy is the steel surface roughness.

The throat is also advancing, getting longer, as the steel deteriorates; it’s wearing in little bit of a cone shape. The gap, or “jump,” the bullet has to cross before engaging the lands or rifling therefore is increasing, and also plays its part in poorer on-target performance. Last time I talked about using a gage to measure and record the actual amount of this increased gap. One way to preserve more consistent accuracy, which means not only group size on target but also shot impact locations (zero) is to adjust seating depth for the lengthening throat.

A chronograph also comes into this picture.

barrel life
Use this gage, along with a chronograph, to adjust the load to maintain the “same” as the barrel throat erodes. More propellant, longer cartridge length to maintain jump. GET ONE HERE
Routinely chronographing your load will show that velocity drops as the round count increases. Since the throat is getting longer (and slightly larger) there is more and more room for expanding gases. Pressure will, therefore, be lower and, along with that, so will bullet velocity.

Increasing the propellant charge to maintain original velocity is a tactic used by a good many good NRA High Power Rifle shooters. Bumping the charge in this way to maintain velocity is a safe and sound practice, by the way. I mention that because, over enough rounds, you might be surprised just how much change is needed. Middleton Tompkins, one of the true Jedi Masters of competitive rifle shooting, used this — propellant charge level increase — above all else to determine when a barrel was “done.” On a .308 Win., for example, when Mid was +2.0 grains to keep the same speed, that barrel became a tomato stake.

Moving the bullet forward to maintain the same amount of bullet jump, or distance to the lands somewhat offsets the result of reduced pressure and velocity as the throat lengthens, but, overall, and if it’s done in conjunction with bumping up the charge, both these tactics are a safe and sage help to preserve on-target performance for a few more rounds, maybe even a few hundred more rounds.

Either of these tactics, and certainly both together, requires a level of attention that many (like me) might not be willing to give. To actually see some reliably positive effect from maintaining velocity and jump consistency, you’ll need to make checks at least every 300 rounds. That’s a fair amount.

Another point I need to clarify is that moving the bullet out to maintain jump only matters to rounds that don’t have some magazine box overall length restriction. Otherwise, propellant charge for loads for rounds constructed with box restrictions can be wisely increased to maintain velocity, but the increased jump will take its toll on accuracy sooner than it would if jump could also be adjusted for.

Other Ideas
A few more ideas on keeping a barrel shooting better longer: Bullet choice can matter, if there’s a choice that can be made. Flat-base bullets will shoot better, longer in a wearing barrel. Trick is that when we need a boat-tail we usually need a boat-tail! Flat-base bullets “obturate” more quickly. Obturate means to “block,” and here it means to close a hole, which is a barrel bore, which means to seal it. The angled tail on a conventional boat-tail creates a “nozzle” effect intensifying the cutting effect. Flat-base will result in a longer barrel life, and, in the way I’m approaching it here, is that they also will extend the life of a barrel after erosion might otherwise have taken its toll. Erosion tends to, at least effectively, become exponential: the more it wears the faster it wears more. An obscure but well-proven boat-tail design does increase barrel life, and also usually shoots better though a worn throat, and that is a “rebated” boat-tail. This design has a 90-degree step down from the bullet body (shank) to the tail. It steps down before the boat-tail taper is formed. These obturate quickly. It is common for competitive shooters to switch from a routine boat-tail to a rebated design when accuracy starts to fall of. Sure enough, the rebated design brings it back for a couple hundred more rounds.

barrel life
 
Sierra gets about 3,000 rounds of accurate test barrel life testing bullets up to 180 grains in 308 Win. Half that for 243 Win test barrels. They use super accurate reference bullets called "standards" verifying barrel accuracy and replace them when accuracy degrades to over .25 MOA average Same for top ranked competitive shooters winning and setting records with those cartridges.

7.62 NATO service rifles have a barrel life of about 10,000 rounds before accuracy gets to their spec over 2 or 3 MOA.

Data based on Sierra Bullet's standard:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=109867&d=1562041073

Bore capacity is 1 grain of powder for each square millimeter of bore cross section area. Powder charges 40% heavier than bore capacity cut barrel life in half. 100% heavier (doubled) cut life to 1/4th as much.
 
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Good to know...I had read that 1,500 rounds is about it with a .243 Winchester..I have gotten 2,000 and the velocity has dropped as well as its' accuracy.
 
The (really) rough rule of thumb for generations, using "standard" (not hugely overbore) rounds is 3-5,000 rounds of barrel life is expected before accuracy suffers significantly. It ALSO makes a difference how the barrel fired. Rapid fire is known to "eat" barrels faster than slow fire.

HOWEVER, that depends on what is considered significant. A match shooter will throw out a barrel that a deer hunter would find more than accurate enough.

SO, what's your standard??
 
T.O.
It's not that lead bullets are softer than steel that burns out a throat.
It's the hot gasses erroding it as it's fired that do that.
From what Wally is telling us, i'd say there is a good chance that, yes the throat (leade) is about at limits for his needs.

Although T.O. is correct in that every rifle, even same manufatcure/model/caliber/ even same day is different.
So, no, no one can give you an answer on leade distance that would mean anything to you.
 
I tried out my new Savage Axis .243 Win rifle and did some comparisons with my 1977 Rem 700. With jacketed loads the Savage got an average of 8% higher velocities. With cast bullet loads the velocities were close, but the Savage had a lower spread. The Savage was noticeably more accurate with all loads. The Rem 700 has a better feel and trigger. If I could have one, I'd choose it. Loading a Lyman 245496, the round easily chambered in the Rem 700, but went it tight in the Savage; further proof that the leade has eroded in the Rem. I will see about getting a take off barrel for it. Does anyone know if Remington will replace the barrel at the factory...the standard Remington factory barrel is good enough for me. To buy a aftermarket barrel & have it installed is almost $500...more than if I bought a brand new rifle.
 
I did...$429 + Shipping. I was thinking of buying a take off barrel and having it installed...it'd be much cheaper. I was hoping to hear from others that did so to hear their response.
 
Unique, Red Dot/Promo. I tried many others and found I do best with these: Promo is my go to choice. I place all charged cases in a loading block and use a flashlight to check the powder levels. I do not use a Progressive machine to load cast rifle loads.
 
I would not worry in the slightest about my leade being worn/eroded from the use of those powders and cast bullets.
You MAY have a bit of problem from lead forming a ring in front of the chamber, though.
I have also heard a bit about a ring of carbon forming in the front of the chamber, that can cause a bit of trouble to clean out.
Often if you try to shoot jacketed bullets through a barrel that wasn't swabbed out after lead, there can be a reduction in accuracy.
Those powders are the "cat's meow" for lead shooting!
Have fun,
Gene
 
If ALL the jacketed bullet loads were hot, there could be some accelerated wear in the leade. .243s can show wear starting about that point.
I use a bit of different method to measure "jump" but my method doesn't give me the difference, it gives me the "0."
I put a bullet into the chamber and hold it there with a cleaning rod.
Then I insert another rod from the muzzle, and rest it against the nose of the bullet. By pushing on both rods at the same time, I can find the point where the bullet ogive just touches the rifling.
I put a piece of tape at the muzzle on the rod coming from the front. Then, I remove the rear rod and the bullet from the chamber/gun.
I close the bolt, leaving it cocked, push the rod from the front until it touches the bolt-face, and put another piece of tape. I withdraw the rod and measure between the pieces of tape.
I insert THAT bullet into an empty case 'til it's OAL is the same as my measurement from the rod.
I use a Hornady Comparator to get my Base-to-Ogive measurement, and THAT will be my ".000" jump measurement. That number can now be used to find the jump with with ANY bullet I care to use from that point on.
As you can see, it doesn't give me a figure to describe my leade, but it does give me jump.
Have fun,
Gene
 
Shooting Lyman 245496 & the RCBS 95 SP-GC with the Rem 700 and the Savage Axis at 200 yards with cast loads...I noticed that the Savage had virtually no fliers; the Remington had many. As I shot the Rem for many years, I know that it used to do better. I have loaded bullets long so that they are at or near contact w/the Leade in the Rem...there was no improvement with its' accuracy. It's time to rebarrel.
 
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