Reloading powder question

S

steven6282

Inactive
Hello again everyone,
So I'm looking at starting to reload. I've ordered all of my stuff, based on feedback and suggestions here I decided to start off with a Lee 4 hole turret press. I'm still waiting on some stuff to come in but I got some of my dies in today (308, 38 special, and 9mm). And looking at the load charts that came with the dies, like 9mm for example (Lee Deluxe 4 Die set).

If I can ever find some powder, I was wondering why the same powder doesn't appear for some grains. For example, I was planning to get some Win 231 or HP-38 if I can ever find it as that seems to be a highly used powder with a good reputation. I see Win231 and HP38 listed for 115 Grain Lead Bullet on the load out chart, but not under 115 Grain Copper Plated or 115 Grain Jacketed Bullet. I also don't see it listed under any time of 124 Grain or 147 Grain bullets. I do see it listed under 125 Grain however.

So, does that mean it's not supposed to be used for those grains? If so, why would it be ok for 125 grain but not 124 grain?

For my 9mm I picked up some of Berry's Preferred Plated bullets for now. Since these loads are going to be used only for target practice, the reviews on Berry's seem to be fairly good. And Cabela's has a sale on them right now that makes the 115 grain 9mm only 7.8 cent per bullet. I couldn't find anything to beat that price. So I picked up some 115 Grain, 124 grain, and 147 grain (I've never shot 124 or 147 grain out of my 9mm and figured this would be a good way to try some out hehe. Anyway, Berry's website claims you can use the same load data for other bullet types with their plated bullets, so I assume I'd be ok using Lead Bullet loads on the 115 for the plated bullets I have. I'm just not sure what to do about the 124 and 147 grain since win 231 and hp38 aren't listed there (if I end up finding one of those powder's).

Maybe this is covered in the manual, but I don't get either of the manuals I ordered until Saturday and just pondering questions based on what I have right now hehe.

One last thing, can anyone suggest a good starting powder for 308s and 223s? I don't know about the grains on those yet as I haven't gotten any bullets for them. The 308s I'm probably going to go with a 160 to 170 grain bullet. The 223s I'll probably do a 55 or 67 grain as that is what I've been shooting the most of so far. I'm guessing I'm going to need two different powders for these two calibers? Can 5.56 and 223 use the same powder?

Thanks!
 
The data that comes with Lee die sets is limited so I wouldn’t make decisions based on it. You need a manual for that.
 
Lee data, even their printed manual, is not their own. It is simply an Old copy of the powder manufacturers/distributors data.

The same data found in the Lee manual can be had for Free and the various powder manufacturer/distributors web sites.

This "sticky" has a list of all the Online free data.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=435562

What manuals did you order?

Before you check out the "data" section, read the front half of the manuals that deals with the procedures of safe handloading. Once you have read this, read it again, you will be glad you did.
 
Steven6282, here are some starts you might consider for the .223, assuming you are talking about the AR15. These were all fired at a 5-inch paper plate at 50 yards with a red dot non-magnified sight, 5 shots each using 55gr FMJ Armscor bullets, CCI small rifle primers, the OAL measured from the base to the ogive was 1.868":

1) CFE-223 26.0gr group 0.7145"
2) IMR 3031 23.5gr group 0.902"
3) H4895 25.0gr group 0.902"
4) BL-C (2) 25.0gr group 1.527"
5) Varget 25.0gr group 1.027"
6) IMR 8208XBR 23.5gr group 0.902"
 
Steven,

For the handguns you can also use UNIQUE as a general all-around/do-everything powder.
It will be listed in just about all manuals for those cartridges.

For the 308 and the 223, get/use any of IMR (or H)4895, 4064, VARGET, Alliant RL-15 and/or H335
They will also be listed in all manuals.
 
Steven,

All the powder makers and some of the bullet makers have data online. Hodgdon's site is one of the better ones and they distribute HP38/231. They have data for both a 115 grain JHP and a 115 grain cast bullet, the 124 grain Berry's HBRN-TP (Hollow Base Round Nose Thick Plate) that should work with the Berry's 124 grain RN, the 125 grain Sierra FMJ, the 125 grain Hornady HAP, and the Berry's 130 grain RN that's actually meant for .38 Special. They don't list any 147 grain bullets with this powder. I don't know why, as they list other fast powders for that bullet, like 700X. Maybe they don't like how much you have to use to get reliable performance from 147 grain bullets with this powder. Buy you can call them and ask or email them and ask if there's a good reason for it.
 
What manuals did you order?
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One is the one that comes with the class 4 hole turret. Then I also picked up the Lyman 49th Edition Reloading Manual.

If there are others that people would suggest please let me know.

For the 308 and the 223, get/use any of IMR (or H)4895, 4064, VARGET, Alliant RL-15 and/or H335
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So are you saying I'd be able to use the same powder on both 223 and 308? Either way, thanks for the list of powders to look for for it. I'm going today to check a couple more stores to see if I can find any pistol powder (I'll look for Unique, HP38, or Win231), I'll take this list as well and see if I can find any of these for my rifle loads.
 
Also get yourself the hornady one that is out.it ill help you because for the 1gr different in your bullet dose not make any different for the powder you use for one and not the other.As long you go with the starting load that is stated in the book.When you look at the data in the hornady it will have different weights of about the same bullet range and starting load for it also there is different style of bullets too.If you get that book and read it you will see in the data what I mean it will help you on it all.Also for you to get the Lyman one that will help you more then the Lee book also.That is what have work for me.
 
Steven -- UNIQUE is "unique" in that it does just about everything in a pistol (and not a few light-load rifles too).
If you see it on the shelf, GET it. ;)

And yes, any/all of those medium-burn rate rifle powders (4895, 4064, VARGET, Alliant RL-15 and/or H335) work well in both 308/223 cartridges. :D


.
 
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Welcome to TFL. We're happy to have you.

I was planning to get some Win 231 or HP-38 if I can ever find it as that seems to be a highly used powder with a good reputation.
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Yes, W231/HP-38 is a highly used powder with a good reputation - to put it mildly. It is among the most used and desired propellants for light to medium loads for many calibers and applications. It has a strong reputation for consistent ignitions, and clean burning. So yes, it spends little time sitting on LGS (Local Gun Store/Shop) shelves. And it seems like you are aware - but you didn't specifically state so; so I'll put it out there for clarity: W231 and HP-38 are the same powder (right down to the lot number, I've even confirmed). They are just packaged differently - one under the Winchester label; and one under the Hodgdon label.

For my 9mm I picked up some of Berry's Preferred Plated bullets for now.
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Good choice. These will work well for the application. Berry's makes great, affordable plated bullets. So does Extreme and Rainier (and others). Look into them too.

So I picked up some 115 Grain, 124 grain, and 147 grain (I've never shot 124 or 147 grain out of my 9mm and figured this would be a good way to try some out.)
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In general, the heavier the bullet, the higher the impact point on the target. I shoot 115's; but my preference for 9mm is definitely the 124's (I carry a 124gn bullet for SD). I like 147's for target shooting too - they seem to be the most consistent.

For the purposes of loading, all things being equal (and rarely is), heavier bullets have the net effect of increasing the burn rate of the powder. That's a bit of an over simplification of the dynamics of a discharging bullet. But it kind of give a feel for how to approach loading for them. In short, lighter bullets tend toward faster powders, and heavier bullets tend toward slower powders.

For instance, with your 115's - and especially for your stated application (target) - the W231/HP-38 would be an excellent choice, and there would be no need to move to anything slower. Some have mentioned Unique as a suitable propellant for your application; but in the case of your 115's, I disagree. Stick with faster stuff. In fact, as long as your loading for target, I wouldn't even use Unique for your 124's. Unique would however work well for your 147's in a target application. But still, like mehavey said: If you run across any Unique, grab it.

If you feel a need to load up a little hotter (and you will at some point ;) ), then Unique may work well for the 124's and 147's. But I'd still shy away from it with the 115's. But that's just me. My powder choice in a given application tends to be toward faster propellants than most others. Trust me, you can load up 115's pretty darn spunky with W231, or a similar burn rate propellant.

I assume I'd be ok using Lead Bullet loads on the 115 for the plated bullets I have.
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Umm, yeah. This is actually an area of ongoing debate here on TFL. Myself, I'd use jacketed data but it's really not that critical - especially in your application.

Plated bullets are not jacketed; and plated bullets are not bare lead either. Here's the first thing you need to understand: Copper has more friction as it slides down the barrel than lead. A plated bullet - although not jacketed - has copper dragging against the barrel; therefore, it's amount of friction much more closely resembles that of a jacketed bullet than a lead bullet. So it follows, that it requires more propellant to overcome this friction than it would if the bullet were lead. The concern with using lead data is that it is possible (admittedly not likely) to stick a bullet in the bore if it is loaded on the extreme low end of lead data. And this is why I recommend using jacketed data.

There are others who will recommend using lead data; and they would be wrong, frankly. Their logic is based on their fixation on the fact that a plated bullet, if driven too hard, can experience plating breakdown. But to retreat to lead data for the sake of this rare phenomenon (especially in your application) is an extreme over reaction. This approach is just doesn't make sense. The much more logical approach is to use jacket data (to alleviate the possibility of a stuck bullet), but to simply be aware of the possibility of plating breakdown, and not drive them too hard. Those in the load-to-lead-data camp are doing so to alleviate something that might happen (plating breakdown), while ignoring something that always happens (copper to barrel friction). It just doesn't make sense.

In your case - target level loads in 9mm - plating breakdown is not going to happen - period. So there is no need whatsoever to retreat to lead data; in fact, doing so can potentially create a far more concerning problem (stuck bullet). Furthermore, in the case of 9mm, it would be difficult - in any application - do drive them so hard as to break down the plating. This phenomenon is far more likely to occur in other more potent calibers like 357 Magnum, 10mm Auto, and 44 Magnum. But not 9mm, 40 S&W, and especially 38 Special, or 45 ACP.

Admittedly, this debate may be one mostly of academics. For starters, there is a lot of overlap between lead and jacketed data anyway. Further, in the case of 9mm, the bores tend to be on the large side of spec - reducing friction - and the barrels tend to be short. So sticking a bullet would be unlikely - even if using the extreme low end of lead data - but why take the chance?
 
Thanks everyone,
I just got back from shopping around a few more local stores with now luck :(

I had no idea powder was going to be this hard to find... I should've stocked up on powder before buying my reloading equipment lol. As it is now, when everything gets here Saturday, I'm going to have a nice pretty press with everything I need to load 9mms except powder.

I've checked all of my local shops that I know to sale reloading supplies, and none of them have a single pound of any kind of pistol powder, much less Unique, 231, or HP38. I can't even find it in stock online anywhere, and at this point I'd be willing to pay the haz mat shipping charge just to get some lol.

I don't understand why powder is the thing that is so difficult to find... it seems like it should be the easiest since the quantities you buy it in, will last for a large number of rounds (I figured 1lb of Win231 would be good for 900 to 1000 rounds of 9mm).

So yeah, I'm at a loss on what to do about powder. I can't drive around to every store in my area every day looking for the stuff lol.
 
Powder is easy to find. You just have to know where to look. And you must be willing to buy bulk.

Are you in central Texas or close? I will sell you some of my powder at my cost, to help you out (avg like $18/pound), if you're close and can pick it up.
 
I'm in Columbia, SC so a bit far hehe. Thanks for the thought though.

And that is part of the problem is I don't know anywhere to look except the obvious stores where everyone else looks. Sportsman's Warehouse is the only big store around here that sales powders and their shelves are empty of everything. Palmetto State Armory is a local chain gun store that stocks some, but they are out as well. There are two Cabela's a little over an hour away each and both of them have empty shelves.

There probably is some small gun shop around that I don't know about that has some.. but that's the problem, I don't know about them :)
 
LGS are the worst places to buy powder. They tack on taxes, their cost of shipping, and then they pass the haz mat fee to their customers. I've never seen powder at a LGS for cheaper than $23/lbs, and that's before tax. Online, if you're willing to buy in increments of 48 pounds (the max weight for one haz mat charge), you will avaerage about $18/lbs for powder, and that's after shipping and haz mat and zero tax, if you're out of state.
 
Yes that is sound logic, but right now I don't have the funds to pay for 48lbs of powder, and also don't know where I would order that has quantities of that in stock considering I can't find any in stock anywhere that I look.

I also don't want to order that much right now until I get some to test out and make sure I like / want to use the powder.

48lbs of powder.. geeze.. if I had 48lbs of pistol powder that would probably last me 6 or 7 years =P
 
Welcome to the current condition :( We are in the midst of a powder shortage. It has been ongoing since very late 2012. The reason is due to panic buying as a response to the political climate at the time. Often called "the big shortage," we are all hoping we are seeing the tail end of it. It has been stubborn to relent.

You are in good company insomuch that there are a lot of new loaders who managed to buy all their equipment, only to not be able to buy any components - especially powder.

I was looking at gunbot.net just now, and W231 was at Selway, but sold out 16 hours ago. Powder is out there, but it is hard to find. The trick it buying on line is to buy in bulk (as machineguntony mentioned). By doing so, the hazmat fee is amortized over the entire order. Yes, the hazmat makes a pound of powder very expensive. But spread over 4 pounds or so, and it gets into the cost effective neighborhood.

For fast powders (what you really want), Look for Bullseye, AA2, Red Dot, 700X, aside from W231/HP-38. Of these, Bullseye pops up the most (and it's a great powder for your 9mm/115's, and 38 Special.) There are other fast powders, but I'm not sure how they perform in 9mm, so I'm reluctant to recommend.

Medium speed powders won't suit you as well (except those heavy 147's), but will get started on loading at least. Aside from the oft mentioned Unique, other good choices are AA5, HS-6, and Power Pistol (least recommended).

The powders that seem to come available frequently but you must avoid the temptation to buy are: AA7, AA9, W296/H-110 (same stuff), Blue Dot, 800X, IMR 4227. All of these are too slow for the application and will only result in sooty frustration and disappointment if you attempt to load with them. A lot of new loaders in your situation have made this mistake. Don't be the next one.
 
Steven6282,

go to Gunbot.net. Select Reloading/Powders, sort by age. Start looking Monday morning about 8am, reload the page every 15 minutes or as frequently as you can, all day long. Then do it Tues, Wed and Thursday until you finally see pistol powder in stock. Immediately go to the web site and order 5-6 lbs or more (to justify the Hazmat fee). Be quick about it. Most powder only lasts a short while-sometimes only minutes.

Sounds like a ridiculous process to buy pistol powder? Yes it is. But if you monitor that web site often enough, you will eventually find some powder.

And as Nick just said, avoid the slower powders. I bought some 800x and tried to use it in 9mm and it sucked. He helped me figure that out about 9 months ago.

I'll add one more powder to Nick's list. Unique works great in 9mm.
 
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Steven6282, you have to start somewhere, and it will be difficult to buy in bulk if you don't know what you want. An easy solution will be to buy from Bass Pro shop if you have one close to you. They are more expensive, but currently you can find Unique for $28.99 with free ship to shore and no hazmat fee. It will be a good starting powder as somebody else already suggested.

I use Unique in 9mm, 40s&w and 357sig. It is probably not the best powder for any of those calibers, but it is a good forgiving powder and good to start with.

Good luck and be safe.
 
I figured 1lb of Win231 would be good for 900 to 1000 rounds of 9mm).
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Closer to 1500 with 124gn 9mm. There are 7000 grains per pound.

If you can afford to buy at least four or five pounds, you will probably come out the same or maybe even cheaper buying online than paying LGS prices. Throw in some primers with your powder order to spread the cost of the hazmat even more. To find pistol powder right now requires persistence, patience and time. The good news is it is actually easier now than it was just a month or two ago. Others have listed some fine powder choices above, HP-38 is my go to. Make a list and prioritize it 1st choice 2nd choice etc. Then, get a list of online retailers that sell powder and bookmark them in your browser sorted so they are all together. Here are a few good ones:

Powder Valley
Graff and Sons
Wiedner's
Midsouth Shooters supply
Recobs Target shop
Third Generation shooting supply
Gamaliel supply
Ballistic products
Precision reloading
Cabelas
Bass pro shops

Check them every day, multiple times a day and be prepared to place an order the moment you see one of your choices available. You can not wait and think about it. The more choices you have on your list the better your odds, but be mentally prepared to wait a while. You never know when your gonna get lucky. Also check Gunbot.net. Good luck.
 
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