Reloading manuals not aligning

va_connoisseur

New member
I'm new to reloading so if this is a common occurrence, please let me know. I am looking at using Varget to push a 168 Sierra Matchking out of my Ruger American 308.

In the Cabela's one caliber book, it list a charge of 43.5 gr to push the bullet to 2700 fps.

The 2017 Hogdon Annual Reloading Manual listed 46.0 gr (compressed) for 2731 fps.

My concern is the vast difference in powder charges, ~6%, is concerning. Also, the Hogdon manual's load is compressed, while the Cabela's listing is not. I'm waiting for my Sierra manual to arrive by mail but my concern is that this may only provide a third data point.

Please advise. Thanks.
 
OK, just relax. Each one above is just reporting what they found in their testing. Different batch of powder. Different rifle. Different temperature. The thing to do if you want to reload is get a good book, pick out a powder, then pick out a load. Start low. Load a few and go shoot. See how they perform. Load a few more with a bit more powder. Go shoot. See how they perform. Working up a good load for your gun and use takes some time. It doesn't just happen. For those of us who have reloaded for years, the reloading is a big part of the enjoyment of shooting. I might also add that most of us do not have a way to measure the speed of the bullet. The published data will give you an estimate. It doesn't really matter as long as you can hit what you aim at.

If you don't want to take the time to work up a load, best stick with factory ammo.
 
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Welcome to the whacky world of reloading.

As noted, start low and work up.

Comparing data you want to sneak up on the lowest value of the load you find.

You may find with YOUR rifle and YOUR powder and YOUR brass and YOUR primer that is the max.

You would think there would not be that much difference but there is.

You may find it maxes out (pressure signs) before you get there but usually not a lot, half a grain (that's not a given)

Or you may find you can load up to Hornady max , hit the limit before or a bit after.

Ergo, never start up at anyone's max load.

Good to have two sources (low loads will not be an issue but it shows clearly what the disagreement on the upper and issue possible end.)

Start down at the lower end and work up.
 
Yep, welcome to the wonderful, oft confusing and frustrating word of reloading.

Reloading manuals are not exacting formula. They are the published results of what the testing lab found when they used the listed components. The components the lab uses are probably from different lots and can vary even slightly. Plus the testing is done on different equipment, and even though they are certified, they can differ. So, results from manual to manual will not be identical...

One hint; if you are using a Sierra bullet, use Sierra data. And start with the starting loads...
 
Reloading manual data is based on the specific bore,powder, and bullet combination. It is NOT the "end all" source as each combination will/may be different. This is why the recommendations start low and "work up" toward what the lab found to be the upper level of safety.
 
I'm new to reloading so if this is a common occurrence, please let me know.

Yes, a very common occurrence for all of the reasons mentioned. Actually differences in the 308 load data aren't overall that large. When you look at data like the .223 Remington you will see some major differences. Also as mikld mentions try and use load data from the guys who made the bullet you are using including things like the final cartridge overall length. Especially when starting out developing loads for your rifle.

Ron
 
Welcome to the forum, and the wacky world of reloading.

And no. Except for the Lee reloading manual ( which combines several reloading manuals into 1 book) no other manuals are the same.
 
Welcome to TFL

Hi, Welcome to TFL.

Yes, it's a fairly common occurrence. As you gain experience, it'll leave you less wrapped around the axle. Ho-hum, even.

IMO, the best source is the bullet manufacturer. In this case Sierra. It just so happens I have a Sierra manual . . .

308 Winchester. Pg 539. 168 grain HPBT MatchKing; bullet #2200.
Varget - 38.7 grains minimum - 2400 f/s. 43.5 grains maximum - 2700.
COAL = 2.800" 26" test barrel; 1 in 10 twist.

I don't load for 308; but there's the Sierra data. If I was to load this bullet; this would be my reference to start.
 
Yep this is common. I normally start with bullet manufacturer data. Start low and work up. Learn to recognize signs of over pressurization.
 
I did a ladder test with 168g Matchking and Varget today out of my Ruger Precision Rifle. Ranged from 43.1gr to 45.9. Even at the high end, there were no excessive pressure signs. I don’t chrono so I’m not sure of the velocity, but if it’s risk you’re worried about, 46gr of Varget isn’t too hot. 46 is Hodgdons website maximum for this exact bullet.

I’m surprised the Sierra manual is 2.5gr lower on the max. That’s a big difference.
 
[QUOTEI’m surprised the Sierra manual is 2.5gr lower on the max. That’s a big difference. ][/QUOTE]

I'm not. I once called Sierra questioning them about one of their "Max" loads. They told me "Well, that's just where we decided to stop.". So, take their "Max" with a grain of salt.

Don
 
If you think that is bad just wait until you find out some books will have higher starting loads than other books maximum loads.

What USSR said is correct. If you ever start loading lead bullets you will notice that a lot of the loads stop far short of anything resembling where the max pressure should be.
 
I'd add to think minimum loads rather than maximum loads. Think of max. load data as a warning; "yer gittin" too hot". It's just common sense to start with known safe starting loads and, if necessary, work up for accuracy...
 
va_connoisseur,

No two makes of case have exactly the same capacity, and no two makes of primer start the powder with the exact same energy, so you get some load variation from that. If the guns used by the load developers had different barrel lengths and different chamber sizes, you get still more variation in velocity and pressure from that.

I had a conversation about pressure measuring with Dr. Ken Oehler at the last NRA Annual Meeting, in which he referred to it as a process with about 5% precision. This is another of the contributing factors to disagreements between load manuals. Another is that, unlike ammunition makers, load manuals don't treat the SAAMI MAP (Maximum Average Pressure; the number given in most manuals) as the average SAAMI intended, but rather, because they are listing some powders that are less appropriate to the cartridge and bullet combination than others (so folks can use what's on hand) and that will vary more, shot-to-shot, than an ideal load, they generally limit the load to one the highest extreme pressure in their 10 shot average does not exceed. Since random variation in a 10 shot sample is around 20% at the 95% confidence level, you would not expect any two of them to have identical extreme highest peak pressure in the sample anyway. Those with lower extreme spread in their samples may set their average closer to MAP than others. Hodgdon does this with their powders, which is why their maximum loads in their data don't all list the same average pressure result. They point out in their print manual that the powder with the highest listed pressure for a bullet in their data is the one with the lowest pressure variation, which is useful when you are looking for a powder choice.

The things that tend to protect you are that lower average pressure the manuals give you being below the commercial pressure limit by the amount of their spread and the fact SAAMI pressure specs allow a commercial ammunition manufacturer to have individual round out of their 10-shot average as much as 18.3% over the SAAMI MAP (in a highly improbable situation). This is still below proof load level, so you are not going to blow the gun up with such loads, though they will wear the throat of your barrel out faster.

The best advice I've seen is to use the lowest bottom load you find in the published data as your starting load and limit yourself to the highest load you find, working up and watching for pressure signs. If you have a chronograph and find you have reached the published maximum load's velocity (with a same-length barrel) with less powder, then you probably have found a good pre-pressure sign stopping place.
 
"...this is a common occurrence..." Yep. Every manual will be slightly different because manuals reflect the conditions, powder lot and components used on the day of the tests. That does not mean the Cabela's book is bad though
Mind you, Cabela's does no load testing at all. Dunno who's data they use. 43.5 grains of Varget sounds like a start load though. Considering Hodgdon's start load is 42.0.
Don't worry about compressed loads either. There's nothing unsafe about 'em. That compressed 46.0 probably starts being compressed at 43 or so grains.
"...ladder test..." Those do not test the accuracy of a specific load itself. They only test where the POI is in relation to other loads.
 
I load 155 and 175 gr .308s and am entirely pleased with loads one grain below the Hodgon maximum.

CAUTION: That is well over the Sierra maximum load
YMMV as they say.
 
this is common as you have been told.

DO NOT TRY TO CHERRY PICK THE HOTTEST LOAD OF THEM ALL AND GO FOR BROKE.

I was reloading .243 in my youth and did so. I even took a suggested load from a magazine, a big no no, and then, pushed it up another grain. Of course that was ten percent or so above the max in other manuals.

Seriously, that was stupid, I was sixteen and reckless, and shouldn't have done so. It could have ruined the rifle. I don't think that there could have been a catastrophic failure, if there was a failure the action was strong and it never showed any signs of pressure problems.
 
I doubt if you'll actually get 2700 fps with 43.5. I've been using 46 gr of Varget for years with a variety of 165/168 gr bullets with good accuracy for a long time. I'd start at about 44 and work up for your rifle.
 
43.5 grains in Federal cases using Federal 210M primers has been Federal's load for their Gold Medal .308 Match with the 168 grains SMK for a lot of years. They get special IMR 4064 for their government sniper ammo featuring the 175 grain SMK (flash suppressant added), but I suspect they also get it specially blended to tighter burn rate tolerance than normal cannister grade for both that and their GM ammo. That's because they've had that exact same load for decades, with about a 0.4 grains spread in the samples I've pulled down.

Federal's claimed velocity is 2650 fps (24" SAAMI standard velocity and pressure test barrel). This round has been the standard for commercial .308 International and 600 yard HP match ammunition for a long, long time. This is not a maximum pressure load. With Hodgdon's own data, interpolated by logarithmic relationships to velocity and pressure to get the small exponential pressure rise factor included, is at about 50,250 psi, so there is room to increase powder if needed. Hodgdon's maximum is 45.9 grains, which is compressed. Indeed, 43.5 grains is very slightly compressed in the Federal cases.

The Hodgdon data also uses the Federal 210M primer and the 168 grain Sierra MatchKing with reference 4064 (a lot right at the target burn rate they have Valleyfield make the powder to), but they use a Winchester case, which is typically roomier than a Federal case and they get about 19 fps lower velocity at the 43.5 grain interpolation, which matches my experience with the different case capacities pretty closely. Manipulating QuickLOAD to match, it looks like the Federal load is at about 52,000 psi in their case and that 43.8 grains would match the Federal load's velocity in a Winchester case. But that still gives you 10,000 psi of headroom (2.1 grains of additional charge in the Winchester case, and about 1.9 grains in the Federal case).

Incidentally, using the Federal load with the 43.5 grain load, different barrel lengths work out as follows:

16" 2411 fps
18" 2484 fps
20" 2547 fps
22" 2601 fps
24" 2650 fps
26" 2693 fps
28" 2732 fps
30" 2767 fps
32" 2799 fps

You can see how the gain from each inch drops off as the barrel lengthens and residual pressure gets lower.

For other QuickLOAD users, I adjusted the default 4064 characteristics to an energy level of 3948 kJ/kg, and the burn rate factor to 0.5739. With the 168 grain SMK and a 24" barrel, the Winchester case with 57.8 grains of water overflow capacity and the Federal with 56.89 grains water overflow capacity, the maximum load pressure and velocity match the Hodgdon data very closely and the velocity matches the Federal data. We don't have the Federal pressure data to compare, but based on my experience with the program and measuring and comparing pressures it predicts to those measured with the Pressure Trace instrument, we are probably within 2000 psi for the numbers all around and within SAAMI limits at all the loads mentioned.
 
Thanks for all the info. The plan is to start at the minimum and work up from there. My rifle loves Australian Outback SMK 168 grain. Shoots much tighter 3 and 5 shot groups than Federal or Nosler
 
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