Reloading Krag 8x58R Danisch

B

Beatus63

New member
Hello,

i am new to this forum. I bought a Krag Jorgensen M1889 in 8x58R. The casings and bullet points were received today. These are Betram shells and .322 bullet points 200 grain spitzers. I read something about a handload with Vithavouri N135. Does anyone have experience with that?
 
I don't have much data on that cartridge, and nothing using VV N135. Caveat, I don't reload for the 8X58R just have very limited data. From my data it looks like IMR 3031 and H-4895 work with the widest range of bullets. N135 is a little slower burning than either of those two, so if you have data it should work.

Welcome to TFL.
 
welcome to TFL

You have a rifle and cartridge that are very uncommon in the US and very little, if any, loading data is out there to be easily found.

The only data I have is a load from the 1972 Cartridges of the World (Barnes), which I will not post because I consider it unreliable data.

The cartridge should be loaded to the 40-45,000psi range and no more.

The Krag rifle is an elegant, excellent rifle, but not in the same strength class as Mauser 98s or modern commercial sporting bolt actions.

Sorry I can't be of more help.
 
CAUTION: The following post includes load data generated by calculation in QuickLOAD (QL) or Gordon Reloading Tool (GRT) software is based on particular powder lots, the assumption the primer is as mild as possible, and assumptions about component, chamber and gun geometry that may not correspond well to what you have. Such data should be approached by working up from published starting loads. USE THIS DATA AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL, nor QL's author or distributor nor GRT's author assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information or information derived from it.

I have loaded a number of obscure cartridges, including one I never did name for sure, but I never tried the 8x58R. I presume you have done an internet search and found that Wikipedia lists two MAP: 26 ksi and 44 ksi. This reflects a BP to smokeless transition. Quickload lists a MAP of 1,800 bar/26,107 psi. A charge of 38 gr N135 is projected to fill your case 72%, generating about 2,000 fps at about 26 ksi. I saw another internet listing of a 200 gr bullet at 2,500, obviously much higher pressure. In fact, that is close to my 8x57 load, a much higher pressure round out of a '98 Mauser. I'd stay clear of that.

I've no experience with GRT, but I do advise you to buy Quickload. Then proceed with utmost caution. Let us know how you do.
 
CAUTION: The following post includes load data generated by calculation in QuickLOAD (QL) or Gordon Reloading Tool (GRT) software is based on particular powder lots, the assumption the primer is as mild as possible, and assumptions about component, chamber and gun geometry that may not correspond well to what you have. Such data should be approached by working up from published starting loads. USE THIS DATA AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL, nor QL's author or distributor, nor GRT's author assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information or information derived from it.

The CIP, by their channel transducer method, put the maximum average peak pressure at 2200 bar (31,908 psi), with maximum individual rounds in the mix for that maximum average never to exceed 115% of that, or 2530 bar (36695 psi). Their mean proof load pressure is 125% of 2200 bar, or 2750 bar (39885 psi).

What is interesting is the bullet diameter listed is no longer common. The bullet has a maximum dimension of 8.09 mm (0.3185"), which will have a minus tolerance (not listed by CIP), but the barrel groove diameter is 8.07 mm (0.3177"), which will have a plus tolerance (also not listed). So I would expect a bullet that is about 8.08 mm (0.3181") would be close to ideal for accuracy. Your 0.322s will raise the pressure a little and probably won't be best for accuracy. However, you can eliminate the raised pressure by coating them with moly or hBN. Personally, I would slug the barrel to get its true groove diameter. The lands are slightly over 0.005" tall in this gun (bore diameter 7.80 mm (0.3071"), so it would likely be very good with cast bullets, for which you can get the diameter of your choice, and a 0.319" bullet in a cast bullet would be a good choice. Even with jacketed bullets, assuming you have the 33" long barrel, you are not going to reach 2200 fps with 200 grains, and 2000 fps is more likely, and that's still within cast bullet velocities without going to extra trouble.

I ran GRT with a 200-grain bullet and got about 26.8 grains of N135 as a starting load and 29.8 grains as a maximum load. For N133, it was 24.6 to start and 27.6 maximum. N135 fills the case a little better but burns less completely than N133. Both are good powders, and you should be able to get those in Europe easily enough.
 
In real life the Danish Krag uses a regular .323 bullet and the groove dia is about .327 + . That is from my 5 rifles and carbines . The original ammo I have has a .322 dia long round nose bullet . When they switched to a Spitzer the dia went up to .325 . Since the average bore size is .3168 - .327 + , a .319 cast bullet would be really bad just bouncing down the bore with a .001 of rifling touching the bullet . If you were going to use cast , you need to slug the bore as you should need about a .327+ cast bullet . All of mine have grooves right at .328 - 9 and I use that size jacketed bullets . My best rifle did a pair of 1.2 inch 5-shot groups at 100 yards in a military rifle match to win , over Springfields , Swedes and Mausers .
 
Ernie,

Thanks for that information. It is interesting the CIP doesn't have two sets of data listed. I agree completely that Beatus63 needs to slug his bore and find out what groove diameter he actually has and choose his bullets accordingly.
 
Norma load data for 8x58R Danisch

I bought original 8x58R Bertram brass in Czech Republic.

This rifle, a model 1889 has a barrel with a diameter of .322. I found a data (from Norma) for N135 for a 196 grain spitzer with 43 grain. However, this data is for a rolling block.

Normally I charge 15% below the minimum charge.
 

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Ahhh! That is interesting. The GRT listing for 8×58R is not the same cartridge. It is for 8×58R Sauer, which is a shoulderless tapered wall cartridge, unlike the 8×58R Bertram. The same is the case with the CIP listing I cited. They both say 8×58R, with no additional information. Fortunately, in this instance, the Sauer version has lower case capacity, so the loads for it will produce lower pressure in the Bertram.

QuickLOAD has both cartridges. It has the lower 1800 bar (26100 psi) pressure mentioned earlier for the Bertram and thinks 39 grains of N135 will be maximum with the 198-grain bullet and gives 2240 fps out of the 835 mm barrel. It suggests 43 grains will reach the higher 2200 bar (31900 psi) pressure with the 196-grain Norma 68007 spitzer that the 8×58R Sauer is rated for. This assumes a tight chamber, though. With some of the 200-grain Spitzers, owing to their greater length using up more space in the case, they reach almost 2500 bar (364800 psi). So I think you are wise to start by cutting 15% off the load you have for your 200-grain bullet. At that 15% lower 2.37g (36.6 grains) charge of N135, QuickLOAD expects it will produce about 638 m/s (just under 2100 fps). The chronograph should tell you quickly enough if you are really getting that number or something less.
 
And never discount the possibility of low velocity loads being accurate. I did a starting load in my 7.5 Swiss custom barrel (Precision Barrel) and it liked it. 2200 FPS.

In this case as 4198 is not listed as a 7.5 Swiss load (it can do fine in 30-06) I started way low and got some decent accuracy I have refined since.

If you slug your barrel you can look for hard cast lead that will shoot in that cartridge. I have shot a lot of good lead bullets out of 9mm lugar pistol and no issues and I pushed the velocity to jacket levels just out of curiosity.
 
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