Reloading help for Webley Mk IV

Tuzo

New member
Since the mid-60's my brother and I have been infrequently shooting a modified Webley Mk IV using factory .45 ACP. Due to inherent weakness of a cylinder designed for low pressure .455, I wish to reload .45 ACP to pressure equal to .455 original design pressure.

Sierra, Lyman, and Lee reloading charts do not list data directly applicable to the Webley. In the past I have reloaded 185 gr hard cast semi-wad cutters with 6.0 gr of Universal Clays for ~950 feet per second. But always concerned about the safety of this combination.

Greatly welcome any have information about safe .45 ACP loads equivalent to .455 loading from forum readers and contributors.
 
Tuzo,
Hodgdon shows your load at 13100 CUP, which has to be a maximum for a Webley. Also consider that your Mk IV is not as strong as a Mk VI.
Does it shoot to point of aim? Seems like a light fast bullet relative to Webley 266 gr.

I have been encouraging a friend to load his Webleys with the Remington .45 Colt bullet, 255 grains soft swaged, hollow based, .454".
 
Go for a velocity somewhere in the 700 FPs range, with around a 230/250-grain bullet.
Denis
 
Thanks and please keep the data coming

Mr. Watson's information from Hodgdon states that I am 100 psi over 13000 psi maximum for .455 according to Wikipedia. Thanks. I should have consulted Hodgdon earlier. Since the .45 ACP case is longer than the .455 case the extra pressure should be evenly distributed over a larger area, hence safely workable.

100 rounds remain of 185 gr hard cast with 6.0 gr Universal Clays. This has been an accurate loading and I hope to shoot this bunch without blowing anything up knowing I am at the edge of danger.
 
These guns depended more on bullet weight than velocity to be effective, and just are not built for high pressures. Even what we'd consider low pressures elsewhere.

Remember once you loosen up the hinge & the latch area, it can be non-reparable.
It's not just a matter of cylinder strength.

I had a VI years ago that was fairly wobbly from using ACPs in a shaved cylinder.
Denis
 
I'm loading 260gr .45 Colt bullets, .456" out of the box, in my S&W Hand Ejector Mk. II that was chambered for the British .455 cartridge.

I'm using a "pinch" of Clays powder, for maybe 700fps.
I'd definitely back way off any load that is driving a bullet at 950fps.

.45 ACP runs at higher pressure, and with a much different pressure curve, than BP .455.
 
Tuzo,

If you are going to be shooting 185gr or 200gr lead bullets, all you have to do is look at loads used for Bullseye Competition which typically travel at less than 800fps.

Don
 
The article linked by T O'Heir mentions a load using 455 cases stuffed full with blue dot powder. That surprises me. I have done a lot of reloading with blue dot in other calibers, and I always use blue dot only for magnum loads. I am skeptical that a case full of blue dot would have the low pressure that the author reported. What do you think?
 
From 1996 Alliant guide, .455 Webley, 265 hblrn, 1.245 col, cci 300 primer, 6.0 inch barrel, max loads. They did not list the brass used.

6.8 gns Blue Dot, 770 fps, 12,600 cup
4.3 gns unique, 710 fps, 12,600 cup.

Own a Mark I, and a Mark VI. Both have cylinder throats around .450 in, and believe the Webley was deliberately designed to shoot hollow base bullets. Have used 200 lrnfp's in the Mark I with unique/blue dot, but was more adventurous at the time and never pushed them very fast
 
Tuzo said:
Since the .45 ACP case is longer than the .455 case the extra pressure should be evenly distributed over a larger area, hence safely workable.

Not so. You're thinking of a fixed amount of force being distributed over a wider area, thereby "diluting" the pressure it applies to each square inch. Pressure itself already takes distribution into account by being the same amount of force per unit area, regardless of how big that area is. At a given pressure, doubling the area doubles the total amount of force being applied.

The problems with 45 Auto data are that they are taken with a 5" pistol barrel, where the Mk. IV has a 6" revolver barrel, which is about 7.27" when measured as a pistol barrel is, though you've also got some barrel/cylinder gap venting gas plus an undersized bore, so it's difficult to get a real equivalent velocity or pressure number.

Currently, the CIP lists 45 Auto Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) as 1300 bar and 455 MkII MAP as 900 bar. While there is a lot of absolute number disagreement among cartridge pressure measuring systems, since those two numbers in bars are from the same measuring system, it is a pretty good estimate that you need to multiply the 45 Auto MAP in any other measuring system by 900/1300 or 0.692 to get the 455 Mk II MAP for that system.

For SAAMI units of CUP:

18,000 CUP × 0.692 = 12,461 CUP MAP for 455 MkII
21,000 psi × 0.692 = 14,538 psi MAP for 455 MkII

Quickload shows that for Hodgdon Universal, you multiply the 45 Auto maximum load by 0.815 to bring the peak down to 455 MkII level. This number worked for Bullseye, too, when I tried it. I had to use 0.800 with Clays. So this varies a bit by powder, but not dramatically until you get to powders slower than you'd want to use, like Accurate No.9, for which you only need 0.92 as a charge weight multiplier.

In your shoes, I'd be tempted to get a custom mold made to drop bullets that fit the chamber throats within half a thousandth.


Cjwils,

After Alliant issued the warning not to use blue dot in 41 Magnum at all and not to use it in 357 Magnum with 125-grain bullets, I am reluctant to use it in untested loads at all. Alliant has never explained the issue, so we can't tell where it applies and where it doesn't.
 
I have heard of Webleys with undersize cylinder throats like Zeke describes. Also SAAs.
If I had a Webley that had already been cut for ACPs, I would measure the cylinder throats and if undersize, would have them reamed to groove diameter.
 
Pressure and volume

Uncle Nick

Thanks for your insight and information. Reliable and well versed as always.

I mentioned increased area and realized later, and confirmed by you, that pressure will be distributed evenly. Please consider pressure and volume and inverse proportionality. A .455 load in a .45 ACP would result in less respective pressure since .45 ACP case volume is greater than .455.

Now I must look at references cited by previous posts to determine safe powder and volume to load .45 ACP to an equivalent .455 load resulting in less than 800 feet per second muzzle velocity.

Thanks forum members for your advice.
 
I am not an expert on Webleys, but I have read elsewhere why many of them have cylinder throats of approximately .450. At some time in the evolution of Webleys they were intended to be used with cordite as the propellant. Apparently cordite is slow to reach full pressure, so the Webley had a tight cylinder throat to slow down the bullet while the pressure rose. Webley ammo in those days had bullets with soft lead and big hollow bases. The hollow base made it easier for the .455 bullet to squeeze through the .450 cylinder throat. After that, the gas pressure expanded the hollow base to fill the .455 bore.

If you reload you can search the internet to find .455 bullets with big hollow bases, but they are scarce.
 
If you reload you can search the internet to find .455 bullets with big hollow bases, but they are scarce.

I've got a mould on the way to me that will cast this .455" hollow base bullet.

Don
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