reloading an odd cartridge 38-40-wcf rifle

georgehwbush

New member
i have not been able to find any load data that is for a rifle in 38-40 note; i have an old 1871 winchester in 38-40 and i have the dies but load data is all for cowboy action pistole

can someone point me toward a little slower powder that will keep the pressure down in the old gun, and still push a 180gr pill to about 1200 ft/s ?

or is this even possible ?
 
They never sold 38-40 with separate loadings for rifle and pistol so what you call pistol loadings should be just fine.

Just start light and work up for your nice old Winchester.
 
i don't know, it's the 1866 paten and also says 1871 but i did find a "modle 1873" so yeah it the 73 modle i was looking at the patent...
and yes that link answers the question, thank you.
 
so the acurate 2015 is just about the same as reloader 10-x i have the 10x on hand, if i start about 19gr would that be safe? quickloads anyone? case capacity = 37.5gr H2O bullet = 180gr jsp fn barrel = 40cal 26" i'm looking for about 1200ft/s
 
powder that will keep the pressure down in the old gun, and still push a 180gr pill to about 1200 ft/s ?

Lyman 1970 manual, 180gr jacketed 8.0gr Unique, 1190fps from 20" Win 92 test gun.
 
CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.


A chronograph will tell you the velocity, but that won't tell you the peak pressure value—only the average pressure taken over the whole length of the tube can be estimated from velocity, and average pressure isn't what poses a risk.

Don Miller's black powder estimator says 40 grains of Elephant FFG would give 1225 fps, so your 1200 fps number would seem to be within reason.

Reloader 10X and other rifle powders near its burn rate are way too slow for this cartridge. It's expansion rate is too fast when it fires, and the powders burn too slowly to make gas fast enough to do an efficient job of keeping up with how quickly the burning space is growing. When I try that velocity and powder combination with a 180-grain round-flat nose bullet in QuickLOAD, the ballistic efficiency is an abysmal 14.7%. Almost 54.2% of the powder is blown out of the muzzle unburned, and the peak pressure is less than 8,000 psi. Under those conditions, you can expect erratic performance, velocities, and lots of unburned powder lining the bore. This is, after all, a pistol cartridge.

The CIP thinks this is a 16,000 psi cartridge. If you don't want to shoot BP, try starting with 6 grains of 231/HP-38 under a 180-grain round-flat nose lead bullet and adjust it up to your targeted velocity. When it gets there, pressure should still be under 12,000 psi, according to both QuickLOAD and GRT. They can estimate pressure on the low side, but you still have another 4000 psi of headroom, and they won't be that far off.
 
In 32/20 carbine loads Blue Dot is a good one but it's not available from posts I've read. Look at a burn rate chart and work something up with a powder between AA #7 and 2400.
 
I load 38-40 for an old 1892 (made in 1892!) using 0.401 cast bullets, starting with Acme, now my own castings. I managed to fit 35 gr FFg in a modern case, delivering 1,124 fps average. I mostly load Alliant Black MZ (no longer sold, but similar products are available); 30 gr gives me 1,327. I'm an advocate of holy black or a good substitute in these old rounds. Easy to load and accurate in my rifle. Cleanup is not as bad as folks make out, especially with substitutes. Make some smoke!

PS: Check Mike Venturino's Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West. He has a variety of loads, including 6.8 gr Win 231 yielding 1,185 fps. I have not tried any of his smokeless loads.
 
Yep. For a 180-grain lead bullet at 1200 fps, the slower powders mentioned, including even Blue Dot and 2400, still blow most of the powder unburned out of the muzzle and run at less than half the cartridge-rated pressure, which is just too low for best consistency with anything but black powder.

The slower nitrocellulose-based powders hate low pressures. The 38-40's rated peak pressure is barely over half that of 32-20, so the powders it can do well with are not the same.
 
thanks to all, good info, i'll let you know what works for me. my only problem right now is getting my hands on pistol powders LGS has none.
 
Get Unique, if you can. Another powder with the same approximate burn rate and case fill volume would also work well.

8gr Unique approximates the black powder speed in all the "-40" calibers. .38-40, .44-40, and the .45 Colt were all originally loaded with 40gr black powder, and about 8gr Unique replicates those speeds.

Bullseye or 231 or similar fast powder will also do the job but I, personally dislike the large amount of empty space in the case due to the very light powder charges. Unique fills the case nearly half way, and so I think is more suitable. SLower powders do fill the case more, but often don't burn completely, and sometimes, not even close.

My Lyman book lists 18gr 2400 and 20gr IMR 4227 as starting loads with the 180gr Jacketed bullet, velocity in the 1420fps range from the 20" Win 92 test gun.

No other powders are listed in my book for "rifle" loads" in .38-40
 
If you want a fast powder that will fill the case well and run at near full-rated pressure, Trail Boss will fill the bill. Good luck finding any, though.
 
sometimes folks are just highly mis-informed
 

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