Reloading 7.62x39 for Hunting and Distance

W

Wildernesshunter

New member
There is actually story and intentional reason that I now own a 7.62x39, bolt action rifle.

After a ton of reading and research and many years of seeking a great tactical rifle, I found a great GSmith that is building my dream gun, guaranteed to work flawlessly. I call it an AR47 Mutant. I have been stock piling the ammo....but it occurred to me about a month ago (maybe when it begin to look like HRC was going to win the election), that I should have a second, back-up rifle that wasn't a "scary, tactical snipper, military gun"......so I can shoot all this ammo, if the gun control freaks take away my AR47 one of these days. Anyway, on to my questions and away from politics.......

Last week, after calling nearly every gun shop in Colorado, I found a Howa 1500 Mini Action Light Weight in 7.62x39. I promptly mounted a nice little Bushnell 3-9x40 and took it to the range. Wow this little gun is a shooter. My 100yrd, three shot groups were sub-MOA with Winchester FMJ White Box.

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While this little gun can fill so many purposes, I suspect I will use the gun more for hunting than anything. Here is where my research began on reloading for this round and what appears to be surprising performance of the round. I thought I would be held to 123-125gr bullets because of the limited powder capacity, but after running some numbers through a ballistics calculator, the 150gr SP is showing tremendous possibilities and I would like everyone's opinion on this load.

(By the way, the VP of Sales for Howa replied to my email this week, confirming that the Howa Mini Action in the 7.62x39 has a 0.310 barrel bore.)

First of all, it appeared that AA1680 with a 123gr Hornady VMax would be the best load solution. But then I stumbled upon the AA2200 with a 150gr Sierra SP load.

Accurate 1680 Powder
123 gr Hornady SST 27.3 gr 2,445 fps
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.274
100 yds 2,143 fps 1,255 ft-lb
200 yds 1,865 fps 949 ft-lb
300 yds 1,612 fps 709 ft-lb

Accurate 2200 Powder
150 gr Speer SPT 29.0 gr 2,291 fps
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.411
100 yds 2,095 fps 1,461 ft-lb
200 yds 1,909 fps 1,214 ft-lb
300 yds 1,734 fps 1,001 ft-lb


Am I reading all this correctly? Does the 150gr bullet end up carrying more velocity and more energy than the 125gr bullet? Wouldn't the 150gr bullet be a much better hunting solution....as well as a better distance load? I suspect my challenge will be to get 29 grains of powder, along with pressing a 150gr bullet in far enough were the rounds neatly fit in the mag.


(A good article where they shot the AK round, out to 1,000 yards: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/08/15/gun-review-howa-miniaction-rifle/)
 
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My wife and I both have killed deer and antelope with our AKs and so have my 2 friends Randy and John. I loaded some Hornady soft points for John and he liked them very much, but my wife, Randy and I have all used factory ammo for our hunting. I was satisfied with all loads except the 122 gr hollow points. They come completely apart in deer and penetration was poor.

But the 123 grain SPs and the 154 SPs were just fine, and John tells me the Hornadys do very well too.

In regards to how well it will work with the Sierra 150 grain bullet I can only say that I have confidence it would be fine. I have used and seen used the old 150 grain 30-30 load many times over the last 50 years and it is OK for deer. (I prefer the 170s, but that a different story)

I have chronographed 150 gr 30-30s in the past. The factories say they go about 2400 FPS, but out of 20" and 16" barrels they have never reached that level in my tests. Most go about 2275 to 2300 FPS. As you can see, that about the same speed you'll get with the 7.62X39 with the same bullet weight.

So if you want to know what the 7.62X39 with do with 150 grain bullets look at about 110 years worth of results from the 150 grain load with the 30-30.

It may be even a bit better down range owing to the fact that the spitzer bullets will hold their velocity a bit better than the round or flat nosed 30-30.
 
I just reload my 7.62x39 for killin' paper and rocks, so I can't help with any hunting loads. I have heard, many times from fellers that have accurate 7.62x39s that they are very similar to the 30-30 in efficiency/performance. When I was checking my manuals, both sent a 150 gr "hunting style" bullet down range at 2,100 or so and I'd use one on deer sized game with the same limitations as the 30-30...
 
I understand that the general rule of thumb on taking large game is.....

1,500 ft lb's of Energy for Elk
1,000 ft lb's of Energy for Deer

If this is a good measure, then the 7.62x39 with the 150gr load I reference above should be good for......

Elk - 100 yards or less
Deer - 300 yards or less

This guidance is probably similar to advice for the 30-30....I agree.
 
The lighter bullet has a lower ballistic coefficient, meaning it loses speed in air faster than the heavier one does.

Please note that the material you posted are images of copyrighted materials, so the board policy on posting copyrighted materials applies. You can, however type out the individual load data velocities relevant to your post. The calculated range data may be typed out, as the data itself is not possible to copyright in any way. Only the layouts and graphic arrangements are.
 
Wildernesshunter, To be legal here in Co centerfire rifles, you need at less @ 100yds 1,000-ft-pounds of impact energy as rated by manufacturer.

If you have copy of the reg they are on page 16.
 
I understand that the general rule of thumb on taking large game is.....

1,500 ft lb's of Energy for Elk
1,000 ft lb's of Energy for Deer
Click to expand...
On what scientific data is that "rule of thumb", based on?
 
I didn't say it was scientific data. I said it was a rule of thumb, which I have heard for years from very experienced hunters, who reload with hundreds of kills.

But let's face it.....we have all heard the stories of a 400 yard shot and a 243 dropping an animal in its tracks and we have also heard the stories of a bull hit with a 300 WinMag through the lungs and it ran for a mile. There is no science behind adrenalin and the fight in an animal.

I will say, if I were hunting Elk with a round and gun that carried 1,200 ft-lbs at 200 yards and I knew I was 1MOA with the gun....and the animal offered a great shot......and I was using great bullets.........

.......I would take it.

This same line of thinking and argument comes in BIG TIME when discussing 500 yard shots on Elk with bigger calibers. At 400 yards a 308 with 150gr bullet only has a bit over 1,200 ft-lb.

I wouldn't recommend that shot to an average hunter and shooter. Can an average hunter control their breathing and be calm and steady with a 6x6 in front of them? Probably not (Buck Fever).....therefore they need a lot more gun for a less than adequate shot placement.....or pass on the shot.

I think it is noteworthy to mention here that some bullet manufacturers will make statements like....."We recommend 1,800 fps minimum for bullet expansion", which is also a consideration for proper load choices.

And I 'get' being legal (1,000 ft-lb at 100 yards)....but hunting elk with a 243 and longer shots, which will have 1,000 ft-lb....isn't wise in my book. Matter of fact, I would never say that taking a 7.62x39 on an elk hunt is wise. The load I reference in this thread will carry 1,001 ft-lb at 300 yards.....and I don't think I am comfortable with those numbers out of a 7.62x39 at 300 yards against a 1,000 lb bull.

This is all good debate and banter.....because it specifically relates to the kill power of a 7.62x39.



...........
 
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Ran to gun shop over lunch and I am now prepared to work up some loads.

Max load with the Speer .311 150gr and Accuracy 2200 is 29.0 grains. I will load two of each of the following.....and run them through a Chrono.

25 grains
27 grains
28 grains
28.5 grains
29 grains

 
The fact the heavier bullets have more energy on paper doesn't mean they will be the best performers on deer in that cartridge.

They were typically designed to be fired at higher velocities, so the jackets could be thicker, causing them to penetrate deep but have little expansion.

You need to chose hunting bullets based on the impact velocities for which they were meant to be used.

I think the ideal bullet weight for the cartridge will be in the 110-130 range for standard bullets, and even lighter for all copper projectiles.

I'd prefer the weight and style that gives the best accuracy, and not focus on foot/pounds.
 
I have to agree with that. I use Remington 150 grain Round Nose Corlokt bullets in mine. They open up fine on deer, even if hit in a soft spot. I have not bought any in a while, but believe they are designed for the 30-30. Actually, I tried .311 150 grain bullets in mine and they shot worse than the .308 bullets.
 
I hope the load works, but I have also been victim to beautiful numbers on spreadsheets, only to find the loose groupings were not acceptable. I can live with 2MOA on this round and gun....but no worse.

From what others have shared in reloading with this bullet, I think it will be fine up to 200 yards. It will certainly be better than a FMJ.
 
Shot all 21 rounds of 150gr bullets and the accuracy was disappointing with 29.0 grains of A2200, at about 4 MOA. Granted, the wind was blowing a little, but the bullets were hitting high, low, left and right.

As a test I shot 20 rounds of the Winchester 123gr FMJ White Box and the groups tightened a good bit to 2 MOA in the gusty wind at 200 yards.

I need to get a shell holder for the x39 for my case trimmer, so am thinking I might pick up a box of Hornady 123gr SST, which have received good comments and reviews for reloading the x39.
 
Congratulations! You have a bolt action .30-30 equivalent.

Lack of accuracy with your reloads can come from a number of factors, one of which is your reloading process. The gun might not like the bullets or the powder, or the amount, OR the way you put them together.

Rifles are funny like that.

Yes, you read it right, the heavier bullet you listed is going faster than the lighter one at long range.

Ballistic Coefficient. The number indicates how "slickly" the bullet slips through the air. Higher numbers are more aerodynamic, and hold their velocity better than lower numbers.

So a heavier bullet, with a higher BC even though slower at the muzzle will have retained a greater percentage of its velocity at long range than a lower BC bullet.

As far as I know, the "1,000ft/lbs for deer, 1,500 for elk" is not any kind of a rule based on need, it is something I have seen in various GAME LAW regulations.

Hunting regs, do NOT name the minimum amount of energy or caliber NEEDED to get the job done (produce a clean kill). They list the minimum amount ALLOWED to be used.

And what the state game depts. decide is allowable is based on the estimated skill of the AVERAGE hunter. And that average includes people who can't shoot worth a damn, as well as experts like all us internet folks...:D:rolleyes:

Many (most) states do now allow ANY .22 caliber for deer hunting. Again, based on what the average, or less than average joes can do with them, not what skilled people can do with them.

Sport hunting is a GAME, with rules that are for the benefit of the SPORT, NOT what is physically the minimum needed to get the job done.


Lots and lots of dead deer and elk over the years, taken with things that don't meet the SPORT hunting standards.
 
"Congratulations! You have a bolt action .30-30 equivalent."

Except that I have 3,000 rounds of x39, that also run through my AR47 Mutant. My ammo stash was the whole reason for buying the Howa in a x39. Last time I looked, 30-30 is still $15 a box of 20. This little Howa shoots the cheap Russian ammo in less than 2 MOA and cycles the steel cases like greased butter.

"...one of which is your reloading process."

Oh you better bet that I have not ruled out human error, both in my reloading and shooting.

Since I still have 65, .311, 150gr bullets.....I decided to load up another 32 rounds. 8 rounds of the each of the following.

26gr
27gr
28gr
29gr

I suspect I will end up going with less powder, lower velocity and lighter ftlbs. But at the end of the day, if I can get 2,200 fps with 27gr of A2200..... At these numbers, I should be at.........at 300 yards.....

1,741 fps
1,010 ftlbs

I intend this little gun to be a 200 yard deer killer.

I also learned through research that a bullet that is as close to the barrel lands as possible, is likely to be the most accurate. I had been pushing the bullets in as far as I dared. I now have the bullets seated as far out as I can, and still fit into the magazine.

I'll shoot these 32 rounds tomorrow and report back with the data. I'll measure groups and take Chrono Data.

I really want to figure out the magic soup for these bullets, with a .411 BC.


And yes, I understand the whole argument about lethality with smaller and lower velocity calibers and loads. After all, I was the 5 year old kid that shot my first doe in the temple with a .22 long rifle.....dropping her in her tracks. But I will not abandon the common wisdom of desired FPS and FTLBS for certain distances and game. I want to see a minimum of 1000 ftlbs on deer at the impact distance and I want to see a minimum of 1,500 ftlbs on elk at the impact distance.


.......
 
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Emjoy, sir, it is a fun and accurate round to play with - been reloading it for a few years for my CZ 527 M/CSR. One thing I do is cast for it as well, and I discovered my cast loads offer theoretical "thump" on the other end, too. I say theoretical because I have yet to hit any serious varmint with it yet, no time to go hunting any more. :(
Bullet of choice for hunting, 123gr Hornaday Spire Point over Accurate Arms #1680, thought by some to be the best 7.62x39mm powder around. I like it, easy to meter.
ost some results if you don't mind? Nice rifle, hadn't seen that one before, my kind of carbine, with detachable magazines. ;)
 
All the discussion about ammo aside you sir have a fine looking gun. I thought I didn't want any more guns, now I am not sure. Hope you find a great recipe for your reloading. Thanks for sharing.
 
I have to second that thought, it looks like someone FINALLY found a way to make the 7.62x39 respectable, for a minute anyway...

Between accuracy issues and stopping power, I have always considered the 7.62x39 rifle offerings & the round itself a 'Wounding', rather than killing combination.
OK for stacking up military casualties, but ineffective for larger game, too inaccurate for smaller game & varmints.

With groups like that, I may have to rethink this position...
Either way, groups like that would make it fun to target shoot!
And it would drive all the 'Purists' crazy on the range... Always worth something! :D
 
The 7.62x39mm is the modern .30-30 in many ways. Very similar performance, and the most common rifles are not especially accurate. Accurate enough, both the Aks an SKS, and the traditional lever guns Win & MArlin, quite good for their intended roles, but not tackdrivers.

Put either is a bolt action, and they become different animals. They get BETTER. Or at least they have that potential.

make it a handy carbine bolt action and you've got the best of everything, except the most rapid firepower possible.

having a good, accurate bolt gun in the same caliber as your "combat" rifle (no matter what caliber it is) is never a BAD idea.
 
I had a bolt action savage in .30-30 when I was a kid, dropped white tails with it in brush out to about 200 yards. Not a tack driver, but put meat in the freezer.
I can see a use for it.
 
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